Thursday, October 11, 2007

Another R-Word

Another word that begins with R is "redux", and apparently this is what I must do for the subject below since there wasn't a fine enough point on it.

My issue is with the use of the word regardless of who the opponent is, which is why I referenced MSU and Air Force in the entry. I might also have mentioned Miami, who generated plenty of hate for ND fans in the late 1980s, but also don't rate the use of the word on that score.

The word gets thrown around during BC week mostly because of the Catholic connection. I would hope BC fans would agree that's a dumb reason to make a comparison. I have no issues with BC as an institution. One of the comment authors below pointed out their current 93 percent grad rate, which is more than sufficient evidence they, unlike most of our fellow D1 institutions, take the education of their student athletes seriously.

As I said in one of the comments below, I don't consider anything I said to be elitist or arrogant or anything else of the kind. Notre Dame football has a strong history and tradition, and that tradition can only be maintained if the people who support it do so. I'm sorry the programs at other schools haven't accomplished as much, but that's a problem for their fans, not me or other ND fans. Decades of accomplishment aren't undone by a couple bad seasons.

ND will most likely come out on the short end on Saturday, but I'm guessing they'll give better than some folks think they will. In future seasons, when the talent starts to mature and Weis' recruiting classes bear fruit on the field, it'll likely swing the other way. But neither of those things, the wins or the losses on either side, will have an effect on history at large. Only long-term performance can do that, and until that performance starts to show itself one way or the other, I'm not about to alter my thinking.



Blogger PBJ said...

Yours is a perfectly reasonable position. However, too many people who draw the same conclusion as you (i.e. BC is not a rival) do so by making insulting and disrespectful comments about them.

To say they aren't a major part of our history (as you do) is a fact, but to say they aren't worthy to be our rival makes us sound pompous and cruel.

But hey, this is just the opinion of a recent alum who has never watched the Irish beat BC. So what do I know?

10/11/2007 03:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In your previous post, you mistakenly said that USC almost has as many Heismans. You two are tied at 7.

10/11/2007 03:40:00 PM  
Blogger BCMike said...

How do you have the balls to put

"I don't consider anything I said to be elitist or arrogant or anything else of the kind."

In the same sentence as "...I'm sorry the programs at other schools haven't accomplished as much, but that's a problem for their fans, not me or other ND fans."


Most impressive.

10/11/2007 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger Mike Coffey said...

True, but you're assuming Reg will hang on to his......

10/11/2007 03:56:00 PM  
Blogger Mike Coffey said...

Sorry, bcmike, but I don't subscribe to the Participation Trophy philosophy that governs our society these days.

If you think pointing out ND football has accomplished more than other schools' programs have over its history is somehow elitist, than I guess I'm guilty by that standard.

I don't consider that elitism, however, any more so than I consider Cowboys or Yankees fans to be elitist. Those teams have done a lot over their history, and if their fans point it out, they're stating fact. Trying to put a subjective marker on it doesn't change that.

10/11/2007 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger BCMike said...

"If you think pointing out ND football has accomplished more than other schools' programs have over its history is somehow elitist, than I guess I'm guilty by that standard."

Mike, it's not that you pointing it out that make it seem arrogant, it's the way you say "sorry" that ND has so much more history.

Listen, most BC fans (myself very much included) have a lot of respect for ND as an institution, the football team and it's history. To feel the need to constantly tell everyone that you're the best assumes that the rest of us are just idiots without any semblance of appreciation for the past accomplishments, however little they may mean today.

We don't.

We know all about ND's past successes. You don't need to tell me or anyone else that like BC, ND is a good school.

We know.

You don't need to tell me that you graduate 90%+ of your players, like BC.

We know.

While I couldn't disagree with you more in terms of your perception of BC in general, and specifically in comparison to ND, you certainly have a right to your opinion. That's fine.

Just don't sit here and tell me how great you think you are, and apologize to the masses because you don't think we're as magnificent as you believe yourself to be.

Just sayin'.

10/11/2007 04:27:00 PM  
Anonymous SD Irish said...

Elitism, arrogance, and factual statements are not mutually exclusive events. They all three come across in your writings, Mike.

10/11/2007 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Mike Coffey said...

When people use short-term results to justify long-term comparisons, I'm going to come back at them using those long-term results to create an apples-to-apples argument, no matter which side of the argument those people fall on.

I don't consider a defense like that to be either "arrogant" or "elitist".

10/11/2007 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger Mike Coffey said...

SD, sorry you feel that way. As I said to bcmike, when people make comparisons that aren't valid, I'm going to call them on it. If they don't want to hear me call them on it, they shouldn't make the comparisons.

It's not like I walk around wearing one of those ridiculous t-shirts like "Backup College" or other moronic stuff like that -- actions like that are beyond stupid. But I'm not going to apologize for showing pride in my school and what its accomplished, particularly when there's objective data to back that pride up, when that data is called into question.

10/11/2007 04:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have found this blog via Atleagle's blog, which is really a great read (fyi). I am a double eagle from CA, and chose BC over UC Berkeley at a time (early 90s) when Berkeley was much higher ranked that either BC or ND.

Concession 1 - ND is one of the traditional powerhouses in football and has great pedigree. BC is not and has not. On that level it would take another thirty years at this rate to be a "rival."

Concession 2 - ND is a higher ranked school and OVERALL a better academic institution.

Synthesis 1 - just because the first concession is true doesn't mean that BC hasn't had a similar success to ND, at least since most of the people who read and post here have been fans (1992). And that's while holding to similar acadmeic standards.

Synthesis 2 - just because concession 2 is true doesn't mean that many people choose BC over ND, or many people who could get into both schools choose BC and don't apply to ND (me for instance). BC has certain factors that make it more attractive to certain people. When choosing grad. school I got a scholarship at U Chicago, rated #1 in my field of study. I chose BC instead because it was better for what I wanted. I would have never attended a school that has prioritals, so ND wasn't even on the horizon for me. Peer institutions don't have to overlap in every way.

Most BC fans are "jealous" of ND in the sense that ND gets tons of attention and is consistently overrated. And we're also jealous of such a great fan base -- we're still trying to get fans to show up on time, and care about a basketball program that is elite and plays the best competition. I wish BC had ND's school spirit.

It's perfectly fine for me to admit things I wish my own institution would or could emulate -- I wish we had engineering to artificially boost our US News rankings, the cash and doner base that ND has.

ND should be envious of SOMETHING at BC -- better-looking coeds, better recent success in fb, better conference affiliation. Just throw us a freakin' bone and we can move on.

I apologize for any classless fans. I wish I could say they never attended BC. Let's keep it classy and have a great Saturday! Go Eagles!

10/11/2007 04:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Captain Ferrell said...

A true "arrogant elitist" would sneer and ignore all of you, not actually take the time to address some of the more critical comments on this board.

SDIrish's Venn diagram reference notwithstanding, I still don't see the arrogance you speak of, just a comparison of ND Football's accomplishments vs. other schools. If that is elitism, by definition, then so what?

I ask one thing of BC fans, and apparently of some of the ND Fans eager to display their "fairness" - look at the Miami and Air Force analogies. Now look again. What was the main point of these? Are you sure?

Now, how on earth can you misinterpret the article after that?

10/11/2007 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger DMW said...

Mike, I ahve one disagreement. Maybe it's my age, but for me Miami will always be the enemy. Even if we don't play until 2091.

10/11/2007 09:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a lot of the animus about BC was in fact generated by the locker-room trashing and battery-throwing sorts of incidents (I personally know a kid who got hit in the back with a battery). At first we students were more shocked than anyting (pardon the pun), then dismayed and disgusted, then angry. A lot of the anger actually stemmed from the fact that as a Catholic school, we regarded BC as a rival and even kindred spirits in a certain sense. I think a lot of us felt betrayed and dirtied by those antics: it's the sort of thing we would have expected from Miami, but not BC. Plenty of my classmates hate BC more than any other opponent, and it's because of that. For several weeks after that BC game, I had the strange experience of walking around the Library feeling ashamed that I was from Massachusetts.

Part of it, too, is that we in Boston have a bit of a complex with regard to this rivalry business. As a diehard Red Sox fan, I listened to people talk for years about our "rivalry" with the Yankees, but the fact is they owned us. Only since 2004 can we say it's a rivalry, and we play 20 games a year with them, and have dones so for 100 years.

That said, maybe we can turn down the burner on this one a notch or two and hope that the players and the fans keep it in perspective. It's a game -- this year they're up & we're down, but still, it's a game.

Anyway, God bless David Ortiz.

10/11/2007 10:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If and until Reggie's Heisman is lost, then you can claim the lead. Not until then.

10/12/2007 08:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with SD irish above. Factual statements and arrogance and elitism are not mutually exclusive. Your article can also be read in context with the NDNation message board, which you are associated with. At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion even it comes across as pompous and a bit of the sour grapes syndrome.

As a humble ND subway alum I could careless about BC fans and sports show prognosticators, a win over a competent 6-0 Top 5 team, is something that our 1-5 team would be extremely proud about as would most ND fans.

10/12/2007 11:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You can't say that his opinion is tied to the comments on a message board on the same web site. That's just crazy.

10/13/2007 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger Big Jack Krack said...

Good luck the rest of the way, ND. I think you have a shot against USC - could end up 6 and 6 (watch out for Navy - that option attack is tough).

I knew (expected) you to play tough football and it was a good game in many respects.

Sharpley looks like the man right now over Clausen to lead you back into the Top 25.

I think you'll be back on the National Map in a year or two - where you belong.

10/14/2007 03:22:00 PM  

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