Brian Kelly inability to identify coaching problems and correct them before team suffers . Brian V DC should be let go replaced after his first year . Jeff Quinn inability to develop offensive line players

I know that if Swarbrick is left to his own devices, we will aim low and yield a similar result. He won't dare approach an elite coach, for fear of being made to look ridiculous, like he is.

Sadly Mora is off the board.

A who’s who of mediocrity.

Over Kelly.

At least I could make some soup.

This conversation has not involved any demands to fire Brian Kelly. After a pretty rough start to the season, he seems to have turned things around, which he deserves some credit for. The fact that the team's improvement has coincided with a significant decrease in the quality of our opponents, however, does complicate how its "turnaround" can and should be interpreted.

Brian Kelly has received unprecedented support from the Notre Dame administration, and he's playing some of the easiest schedules the program has ever faced. Rather than wonder if the same average to above-average coach we've known for years might simply be benefiting from some of that support/those schedules, a significant chunk of the Notre Dame fan base seems ready to anoint him a "changed coach" who has us positioned "exactly where we need to be". "Who knows; with a few lucky bounces, maybe he could deliver that long-awaited national championship."

Stop; he's gotten plenty of lucky bounces. His biggest win came against a team missing its starting QB (and #1 overall NFL draft pick) and many play-makers on defense. At full strength a few weeks later, that team murdered Notre Dame in the ACC Championship game. He gets to pile up wins against teams ND wouldn't have even considered playing 20-30 years ago...he's beaten South Florida, New Mexico, Bowling Green, Ball State, Temple, and Miami (Ohio) in the last four seasons alone! I think many former ND coaches would call that a pretty luck break.

My position remains consistent: He's a competent, average to above-average coach. There's nothing special about the guy. Plenty of other competent coaches could have produced similar results over the past few years given similar resources and schedules.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that, and I won't pretend to be able to generate 5 names who are guaranteed to produce better results than Brian Kelly has. At the same time, I think it's pretty damn hard to identify other competent coaches guaranteed to produce worse results.

Let's just stop trying to convince ourselves that the Ford Explorer we're driving is actually a Mercedes GLS 450. It's not.

years. The momentum in this program -- both on the field and in recruiting -- is undeniable. Kelly 2.0 turned out to actually be an improvement. Our program's floor has been raised.

ACross is right about both our schedule this year and the ineptitude of our offense early on. This team is not NC-caliber. But, the talent in our freshman class, combined with the 22 and 23 recruiting classes (currently both ranked Top 5), open a window of opportunity for this program to take the next step. Brian Kelly is not Nick Saban, but I believe it's irrational to assume that he's hit his ceiling.

happened. It is volitional amnesia. With a side dish of dishonesty.

You guy act like this team is like a sharp knife cutting through a dry aged New York strip.

But we ave been "playing well" and "building momentum just as we, not coincidentally but instead by purposeful dilution of our schedule cum semi-membership in the dogshit ACC. Kelly's program is actually a butter knife cutting though a stick of butter that has been microwaved on high for 1 minute.

Kelly cannot slice or dice anything, much less make julienne fries. If he is a knife, it is a dull one.

I actually think he is more akin to a wedge, which is the simplest of tools

Just your thinking our schedule has gotten easier...we started with FSU and Toledo. Our schedule has not gotten easier since the start. Your KDS is starting to affect your posts.

Current Sagarin ratings:

FIRST HALF

FSU - 60
Toledo - 71
Purdue - 24
Wisconsin - 9
Cincy - 8
Va Tech - 74

Average: 41


SECOND HALF

USC - 61
UNC - 49
Virginia - 53
Navy - 104
Georgia Tech - 96
Stanford - 87

Average: 75

The second half of the second half of our schedule is particularly dreadful. Yet, two big wins over Navy and Georgia Tech seem to have a decent chunk of our fan base ready to anoint Brian Kelly as a changed coach. Give me a break.

Post. So you grasped something else.

I conceded that exact point in my post. These last few weeks do not make us a national championship team. Our opponents have been dog shit, and the ones that haven’t been total dogshit have been without their main QB.

But the momentum in this program transcends this season. We feel a lot like the pre-Watson Clemson teams that were good, but not elite, until they turned a corner recruiting.

Big Ben/Parliament.

We can't get left.

Especially considering he's never really demonstrated the ability to win a big game that actually matters.

When you've got 12 years of history, you know what you're dealing with.

Also, saying things like "the momentum in this program is undeniable" just a couple of months after almost losing to Toledo at home, and getting beaten soundly by Cincinnati at home, is just silly.

more often than not from my earliest childhood memory through 2016.

Think of it this way: In the 20 years of Davie, Ty, Weis, and Kelly 1.0 ND lost to a team that finished unranked 48 times. That's nearly 2.5 losses to unranked teams per season.

After we beat the Stanford Cardinal on Saturday evening, Kelly 2.0 will have completed all 5 years without a single loss to an unranked team.

Now, you ultimately can't just write off Kelly's first 8 years when judging him, but it's undeniable that Kelly 2.0 has brought the program up a tier. And the recent recruiting momentum (landing some top tier kids that we've been missing out on for decades) indicates that the ceiling has not yet been reached.

How to interpret this year's peformance is problematic for a number of reasons.

I'm more concerned about losing him as a recruiter than losing him as a DC.

Why are easy to succeed programs like USC, Texas, and Florida struggling so much to find these easy to identify Head Coaches? Guys like Tom Herman and Dan Mullen were can’t misses when they were selected. Many people here (and I would include myself) thought Mullen would be a perfect selection as NDs next HC. He just went 2-9 against power 5 teams over his last 11 (and barely beat Samford)

It’s a lot more difficult then you want to acknowledge. That does not mean ND should not have done better than the horrible selections of Davie, Ty, and Weis, but finding a successful head coach is not simple. There is a reason there are only a handful who continuously coach at a high level.


And I agree Kelly does not seem to be Championship caliber. I don’t care if we move on. I just don’t trust JS to pick a championship caliber coach to take his place for a few reasons. One, because he hasnt proven that ability as an AD and two, because it is not an easy thing to do.

Do you have a HC you would select that you are completely confident would be successful here? Fickell is worthy to take a chance on. I personally like Whittingham a lot though I’m not sure he would leave Utah. Day is probably not leaving OSU. We missed our chance with Saban. Urban fucked up. Dabo is not coming here. I’m curious who your list of a few can’t miss guys would be.

As you note, every power program save probably Ohio State, Georgia, and Oklahoma have spent time recently wandering the coaching wilderness for program stability.

I don't think the NFL is some silver bullet either. Certainly coaches at the pro game should be considered for an opening, but you just don't see a lot of head coaches jump from the pro ranks to the college game for good reason; they would rather coach pros than deal with the 24/7/365 grind of blowing smoke up the asses of 17-18 year olds in recruiting which has now extended to having to recruit 14/15/16 year olds too. Mike Tomlin made it clear how most NFL coaches view power college program jobs.

In terms of where ND goes when BK hangs them up in the next 3-5 years, Luke Fickell would be the safest pick. HC experience, has spent time under very successful coaches (Meyer, Tressel), understands big time college football (unlike BK when he was hired), young enough to handle the rigors of the job, and is a Midwestern guy who would likely appreciate the university and its mission more than BK. Not saying he's a homerun hire, but I'd be shocked if he didn't easily replicate double digit win seasons over largely ACC bottom feeders.

After the Bear, they fired EVERY coach after 3 years who did not win a title. Bill Curry won at a .720 rate AND won the SEC. F YOU Bill, you're fired.

Then Stallings won a title in year 3. Retired 3 years after that.

Once again, they brought on new coaches and gave them 3 years. No more. No title? You're out of here.

I'd much prefer ND take the same attitude.

"Has spent time recently" in the doldrums.

We have gotten three right since 1963. 58 years.

We missed on Faust, Davie, O'Leary, Willingham, Weis, and, I would assert, Kelly (but acknowledge that others think he's the "best available coach"/"the best we could get"/he sucked most of the time and maybe shoulda been fired in 2016 but he's been great the past 5 weeks against tomato can"/"and who else would be guaranteed to be better than our known quantity who if you look at him at just the right angle, squint your eyes, and ignore or forget").

Some people deal with Kelly's tenured status differently. DBCooper is posting like he has been written into Swarbrick's will of late.

But we know exactly who he is and what him limitations are.

your reading comprehension sucks


"And I agree Kelly does not seem to be Championship caliber. I don’t care if we move on. I just don’t trust JS to pick a championship caliber coach to take his place for a few reasons. One, because he hasnt proven that ability as an AD and two, because it is not an easy thing to do."

1) Swarbrick and the board (including Father Jenkins) are the bigger problem than the football coach.

I would imagine that you, I, and A-crow agree on that one.

2) While Kelly does not appear to be a championship coach, I would probably argue that if we had watered down the schedule and allowed for the exceptions that we have allowed for Kelly, likely Davie and possibly Weis would have had similar levels of success at ND. Willingham was completely lousy.


I would add my own thoughts here--I don't dislike Kelly as much as others seem to, mainly because I don't think that he's the problem. I disagree with his need to always try and add nonsense like field turf, jumbotrons, etc. and I think that he has poor taste. His offensive system isn't my favorite, and he's struggled to put together a competent staff at times. However, it's the whole attitude of the place that turns me off and makes me turn the channel. I don't really consider myself that much of a fan of the program these days and honestly if it wasn't for this community I would probably tune out entirely. ND comes off as a has been looking for the easiest possible way to win while trying to maintain this aura of "doing things the right way" that just comes off as completely phoney.

Particularly in 2008 and 2009.

we all saw 2007 coming, the cupboard was bare, Ty left a mess, etc.

A consistent easy schedule with restrictions being eased up? He probably would have been fine. What makes him different than Kelly is that when the school leaned on Kelly to clean up his act and stop with some of the nonsense, Kelly did it. Weis was a stubborn prick up to the very end.

I was going to edit my original post to say that JS is the bigger problem. So you were reading my mind. Im sure Across would argue the BOT are equally at fault. He would know better than i would, but Jimmy Dunne's thank you note to Georgia is all I need to know (I hated that if its not clear)

On #2, you might be right. I think football has changed a bit over the last 20 years where everyone is looking to water down their schedule. I mean look who Georgia and Texas A&M played last week. In the middle of November. Embarrassing. So I think this is as much a college football issue, than ND. Doesnt mean that ND shouldnt be better than that, but that is the reality of the sport. Even with all the bitching of an easy schedule (and rightfully so) ND still has one of the strongest SOS of the top 10 teams (up until now, that will obviously change) As far as recruiting exceptions I think Weis got that started a bit but I could be wrong. But recruiting was usually not an issue with Weis (at least not on offensive side). Kelly's biggest issue, IMO, has been his lack of recruiting. It seems he is finally getting it, but people should not be happy he figured it out by year 10.

There are many things Kelly has done that I dont like, but Im ok with some. I have no issue with the Jumbotron. I certainly dont think its perfect, but I think it was needed. I hate the turf, hate the elimination of morning mass, etc. I hate the changing of the Irish Guards more than anything, and although that is a band decision, Ill still blame Kelly too. Yeah Kelly is too cocky, obstinate HC. Arent they all?

"ND comes off as a has been looking for the easiest possible way to win while trying to maintain this aura of "doing things the right way" that just comes off as completely phoney."

Yeah, i get that view. They should be better. I think the game has changed and ND is forced to change with it sometimes, whether we like it or not, but there are many things we could fight against.

they've taken the approach as a conference that the goal in football is national championships, therefore it is better if you're going to lose to lose games earlier in the year. They have their "buy" games later in the year, right before the rivalry/conference championship games.

I honestly don't think that it's that much different from a scheduling perspective. I just think that ND sold out. It's cool. They're going to thrive and survive without me as a hard core fan, and if I get a chance to watch them, I will tune in for a bit. If I'm in Phoenix for the New Year and they're playing in a bowl there, I will check it out. But I am not going to go out of my way, as I just don't have the buy in that I used to. I expect this sort of bullshit from the Georgia's, Alabama's, and Ohio Stat's of the world. I think that ND used to be different. If it's not anymore, that's all well and good. ND is going to do what is best for ND.

And looked like ass the next week against a pathetic VTU team, so yeah, 5 weeks. Before Cincinnati, we played a nice game against Wisconsin, and up to then generally looked like we used to call a Chinese Fire Drill. Backing up further holy shit did we get depantsed in a playoff game.

So, I think my assertion was quite accurate.

Their worst coaches in that span (exempting Fickell who was a 1 year interim) were Bruce and Cooper, who won at 77% and 69% clips, respectively. Kelly is their equivalent and they both got fired! That’s a pretty amazing run.

Oklahoma had Blake and Schnellenberger between Switzer and Stoops. Georgia had Dooley who held on way too long and then Goff.

I wish we had those kind of problems.

To ACROSS's point, Ohio State (and Alabama and now Clemson and I'm sure a few others) has full institutional alignment with making sure the football team performs at an elite level. Notre Dame seems to want to tiptoe around the edges either because fear of failure or some misguided idea that committing to athletic excellence must come at the expense of academic excellence.

But, falling back on winning % for a school that has 2 championships post-1970 is Swarbrick-esque, and also proves the point that hiring championship-level elite coaches is not easy. One of those championships was won with a skin of the teeth season and came after a suspicious late flag in the championship. The other was won by one of the top 2 coaches of the last 20 years and itself required some good fortune to shine upon them.

Maybe Day gets the job done this year. Maybe Kirby Smart does as well. But, if Saban pulls another rabbit out of his hat, then the only conclusion is that Day == Smart == Kelly in the not-elite club.

My point was they haven’t had a bad coach in 70 years. In that time, we’ve had Hanratty, Kuharich, Faust, Davis, Ty and Weis.

I would have much rather had OSU’s last 70 years than ours. We’ve had six horrible coaches to endure. They’ve had zero.

Are you saying they should have won more titles during that span? I would agree with that but if you’re asking me whether I’d have preferred OSU’s “underperformance” over the last 70 years versus ours, I’ll take theirs in a heartbeat. We’ve had 6 horrible coaches over 28 years. They have had zero.

My point was they haven’t had a bad coach in 70 years. In that time, we’ve had Hanratty, Kuharich, Faust, Davis, Ty and Weis.

I would have much rather had OSU’s last 70 years than ours. We’ve had six horrible coaches to endure. They’ve had zero.

Are you saying they should have won more titles during that span? I would agree with that but if you’re asking me whether I’d have preferred OSU’s “underperformance” over the last 70 years versus ours, I’ll take theirs in a heartbeat. We’ve had 6 horrible coaches over 28 years. They have had zero.

The point that it's hard to win national championships and incredibly hard to find a coach that can do it multiple times. And, less so, I wanted to note that institutional alignment is as important as finding an elite coach --- though it's likely that's a bit of a chicken/egg situation.


Specifically to trading places, it is an interesting thought exercise assuming we don't get to pick and choose. I'm not sure anyone would give up Parseghian/Holtz both because of their success and because they truly loved Notre Dame and everything it stands/stood for. Devine is probably a toss up. And, of course, since then we'd trade for Tressel/Meyer and probably be happy with Day. Though, I'm not sure how those guys fit at Notre Dame.


I'm not well versed in the history enough to understand why we hired Faust. Davie is mind blowing -- did anyone that ever heard him for one second at a press conference think "this guy is elite"?! Willingham was a desperation hire after the O'Leary debacle not that O'Leary was all that inspiring as an elite hire. Weis was again a desperation move after whiffing on Meyer, but it was at least arguable that he might satisfy some of the qualities of an elite coach. And, Kelly was a "safe" hire of an up and coming coach. And, it's been (at least 2.0) exactly what I expected -- some undefeated seasons while getting outcoached by the elite coaches in the game.


My hope when we are finally hiring the next guy is that the AD/PTB actually put in the work to identify and hire an elite coach. As history from both our experience and others, it's unlikely to be the obvious choice. And, elite meaning national championships not 10 win seasons.

Since 1970.

ND: 1973, 1977, 1988
Ohio State: 2002, 2014

They, of course, have the more recent national championships, by a considerable margin.

It's also worth noting that there was a little luck involved in each of our three national championships as well. But I think a little luck is a requirement for any national championship.

Nebraska was the AP champion and Texas was the coaches', but I believe the latter was done before the bowls as we beat Texas handily in the Cotton Bowl that year. I believe that was the year Richard Nixon went to the Texas-Arkansas game at the end of the season and declared the Horns champions when they won.

Ohio State claims the title from something called the National Football Foundation.

Notre Dame actually scored the highest that year with Ohio State #2 and Nebraska #3.

You forgot (who could blame you?) Gary Gibbs, who came immediately after Switzer retired in 89, then John Blake, then Schnellenberger. They were atrocious to mediocre for 10 years in the end of the Big 8. Stoops took them to the championship in his second year, but although they've been back a few times since, they haven't won one. So they basically occupy the same space as us now - close, but no cigar. Their high water mark is playing one of the only competitive first round playoff games, when they lost to Georgia in overtime. Other than that, they've been handled in their other three first round appearances, as have most other teams who got to the playoff. They had a BCS blowout too, losing to USC in 2004 worse than we lost to Alabama.

1. In the NFL, not every game is a matter of life and death. If your team has one (or even two) very off games in a season, that won't derail your entire season. (This difference is balanced out somewhat by increased parity in the NFL vs. college, but it still requires an entirely different mindset at the college level.)

2. Once you get the players to campus, you're dealing with 17-18 year-olds who are: (a) away from home for the first time in their lives; and (b) being told, also for the first time in their lives, that their bodily excrement does not smell like a rose garden. A college coach has to deal with the psychological ramifications of that, which can be significant.

3. Academics.

I won't go so far as to say that coaching in the NFL is easier than coaching in college, but it is different. Coaching in the NFL allows a coach to concentrate more on football, and doesn't require being a surrogate father so much. Yes, if there is a NFL coach who is interested in going to college, and committed enough to that idea to deal with the differences, that coach ought to merit serious consideration. But I think it's a fallacy to assume that there are any number of NFL head coaches who would jump at the opportunity to go to college, even for the ND job.

Mike Dubose
Dennis Franchione
Mike Price
Mike Shula
Joe Kines

The Alabama head coaches between Gene Stallings (left 1996) and Nick Saban (arrived 2007).

51 wins and 55 losses over ten years

In a manner of speaking, no?

way more successful than Willingham. And would have likely left ND in way better shape when he left than Willingham did.

Everyone points out Davie as the start of this slide but every major program hires a dud or two and can rebound. The real problem that has ND where it is today is Monk's meddling and the hiring of Willingham.

Probably in the Kelly bucket of being better than Davie and less good than Lou. He did some impressive work at UCF taking them from the toilet in 2004 to a Fiesta Bowl win in 2013. It ended badly, as almost all coaching careers do, but it was a heck of a rebuild.

But both episodes illustrate the difficulties of hiring the right guy.

loss thrown in, too?

After 2016. I doubt crazychester is either. But that’s not the discussion. We are talking about Kelly as a HC since that atrocious year.

And that 1 win came during three fake COVID season against Clemson without its stars. Clemson subsequently beat us like a drum in the acc championship. Ndzippy is right, you are wrong, stop.

whats the problem?

"After 2016. I doubt crazychester is either. But that’s not the discussion. We are talking about Kelly as a HC since that atrocious year."

My response: Since then he is 1-7 against the top 10 and the one win is dubious. That is not "good."

You: AI is 100% wrong as usual

First off - take this to heart. You told ndzippy he couldn't hack it in your job. If he said something to set you off my bad but maybe consider that is not worth continuing in this thread or on the board for a few days. I have had to do this a few times. Now I just ignore toxic posters for the most part. I am wrong all the time but 100% is exagerating.

Secondly, I went from memory and my bad I forgot Miami finished unranked. Whereas a record vs. power5 can be dispositive regarding Mullen's recent performance, the discussion here is around BK2.0. To me, the brass tacks indicator is record against the top 10 and there BK 2.0 is piss poor.

BK2.0 v. top 10 end of season by year (1-6 if you include UC)
2017 - UGA (L)
2018 - Clemson (L)
2019 - UGA(L)
2020 - Clemson (W/L), Alabama (L)
2021 - Cincinnati (L) - TBD on final ranking

BK2.0 v. top 10 time of game by year 2-7
2017 - UGA (L), Miami (was 7 finished 13) (L)
2018 - Clemson (L), Stanford (was 7 finished UR) W
2019 - UGA(L)
2020 - Clemson (W/L), Alabama (L)
2021 - Cincinnati (L) - TBD on final ranking

But carry on being the CAV of RH's today. Never thought I'd see it.

ndzippy called me a pansy and then continued to call me that. This why I gave him a fuck off comment. Thats why i went off. I think you know enough of my posting style that I have little use for personal shots and bully posts. We are all ND alums (or strong fans) and should act more adult when talking to each other. So, That sets me off. But you said you didnt see that, so thats why Im explaining, but it was in his posts right before mine. I would never, NEVER, NEVER, Never, try to act bigger or cooler or tougher, or whatever then anyone here, unless provoked, and then Im only doing it to get back at the initial insult (which I wouldnt start). I dont know ndzippy at all. Im sure he is a great guy, but I have no patience for someone calling me a pansy or any other derogatory comment.

As far as Kelly, I have repeatedly stated I dont think he is a national championship caliber coach. But I get tired of the constant negativity toward him with this view that he sucks as a coach. If he sucked he would not have gotten the team into that position to be embarrassed by Bama or Clemson. We would be like a mid tier Big 10 team who was hoping for 7/8 wins. So I give him credit for that, but fully acknowledge he isnt going to get us to the promise land. Which is all i care about. I also have an issue when people just say oh there are plenty of others who could equal Kelly or be better and so its easy to find his replacement. I dont think its easy. As I mentioned to Across, if it were easy some of these programs where winning is alot easier than ND (because of their backyard recruiting pool) would not continue to struggle to find a good HC. To ndzippys credit he came up with a list of 20 or so names he thinks are equal or better than Kelly. I disagree with alot of that list. Most of those coaches have had embarrassing losses to unranked teams. Kelly, to his credit, has not really had that over the last 5 years. So he is in the middle ground of a HC for ND. Good enough to win dozens of games in a row against shitty teams (whoopie de doo), but not good enough to win against the top 5/top 10 teams.

I also think it makes fans sound foolish when they make extreme comments like that. Not that people here would or should care, but if you make comments like Kelly sucks over and over again, people on the outside will think you are just chicken little or an incessant complainer and will not respect you later on when you really Should voice concern over the current coach.

So I am aware of your comment that he sucks against the top 10 teams. That fits his MO. But that doesnt change my opinion of him as a good Tier 2 HC. Im sure other good Tier 2 coaches have mediocre to poor records against top 10 teams.


I apologize to my comment to you above. I like you as a poster, and really appreciate you working on changing your posting style. That is not easy to do and recognize. I got tired of other posters telling me something where numerous times I have stated the opposite, so I blew off the handle on you. Should not have done so.

"I have no patience for someone calling me a pansy or any other derogatory comment."

Let's establish what really happened here. You were the first to use derogatory language: "You keep crying about Kelly as just an average coach no one is going to listen to you."

When I said you don't know me well enough to know what I cry about, you said you were making a general comment about people complaining. Fine.

I followed up later by saying: "Man, ND fans seem like the biggest pansies on earth with respect to taking on risk with a head coach. I'd be willing to bet they don't operate the same way when it comes to their finances."

I never used the word "you"; I was also generalizing. If you choose to interpret that as me using "derogatory" language toward you, that's on you.

Then I made what I intended to be a joke when I started a post, aimed at you, with "ya pansy". I think further context (i.e., saying you "keep your money in a 0.3% checking account"...I mean, come on, who does that?) supports the fact that I was joking, but I apologize if I stepped over the line.

You followed with "You would probably wet your pants if you had to do my job for a day." I think that's worse than being called a "pansy", but to each their own. I also think it's not true, as I spent plenty of time supporting life & death missions during my time in the Air Force.

I harbor no ill will toward you, and I don't believe I deserved the level of response I received from you based on the comments I shared in my posts. Let's just move on.

no ill will. You mention that your comment was meant to generalize and then you meant to leave a joke. If you mentioned that either time, as I immediately did when you countered with the "crying" comment, I would have known and kept it civil. Since you didnt how else was I supposed to take it? Yes, you went from pansy to then the checking acct comment. I viewed that as escalating the denigration. And since Im in finance, well that touched a little nerve.

Yes, my comment was meant to be worse, I was only pushing the ridicule. I am sure your time in the Air Force would enable you to handle a very stressful and volatile job. Its my luck I made that comment to one of the handful of military vets on this board. If I knew you were I would have ridiculed you another way :)

But we are good as far as Im concerned. I appreciate you explaining your posting process here. If I knew you were joking I would not have gone down that road. So apologies.

Lets just go back to your list. I mean, you had some good coaches there to debate. But Tom Herman? Come on

Its also bad luck Mullen got fired right after you made your list. Not calling out an Air Force vet for being unable to handle stress bad luck, but still bad.

I think our debate has started an interesting conversation here. So kudos to us.


Have a good Thanksgiving

I know, it sounds silly. But hear me out.

What he accomplished at Houston is just as good as anything Brian Kelly accomplished at Cincinnati (both teams earned final #8 rankings once).

He's (still) never had a losing season. That's even more impressive when you consider his tenure at Texas followed three straight losing seasons...and preceded this year's 4-7 (and counting) dumpster fire.

He has a 5-1 bowl record, including a Sugar Bowl win.

To use ACross' word, it's pretty clear that he's a meathead, and he spends too much time in strip clubs. But he's always produced results on the field, and I think he still has another act in him.

I think the Texas brass probably wishes they hadn't run him off in favor of Sark, who may well go one & done at UT.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

NDZippy - get it. No further explanation needed. I stand by the "maybe it's time to say 'fair enough' and hang it up for the next couple of days"

Are people saying BK sucks? I mean I say he sucks, but if you ask me to explain I'll say he's fine but we need something better. I think some folks are exaggerating because they hate purgatory. That doesn't mean they think he literally is a bottom quintile coach. If they do, they're incorrect and it's not worth engaging.

I've blown through my posting budget for the day so will conclude with my theory that the truth is somewhere in the middle here and everyone is having a squidish fight about details that don't really matter when they likely have interests that are heavily aligned and positions that simply rephrases of one another's.

Happy thanksgiving

Hoping the new year is better for you than the last one. I know you have been through alot.

I’d be willing to bet a metric shit ton of money that whomever we hired would not have won 85 % of their games and sure if shit wouldn’t have won a title. Moreover I don’t think the program would be anywhere near where it sits right now

But if the ND Administration were to give into the majority of this board and fire Kelly now, there would be a PR shitstorm of epic proportions. Can't fire him now. The only way to get rid of him is if he dies, retires, or takes another job (or reverts back to pre-2017 form for more than one year, but for the sake of ND football, I'm not rooting for that option.)

USC had Sarkisian who ran into a rough spot. He had serious issues with alcohol. We all know people whose lives have collapsed with such problems.

I have a soft spot for Kiffin, at least for his dad. So i will recuse myself. But it was not ancient history when they were atop the heap.

Florida has shat the bed since Meyer and shat the bed for the rest of its entire history save Spurrier.

Texas has similar problems as ND. Too many big donors and other influential alumni trying to play GM. Whereas at ND it is just the lace curtain gang.

open jobs.

Maybe that's good enough for Florida. Maybe the occasional upset of Alabama or beating the in-state rivals is enough as well. But, I wouldn't bet on Lane Kiffin winning a national championship at Florida (or anywhere) and certainly not more than one.

At, say, Florida. Kiffin has done pretty well at both FAU and at Ole Miss, but the expectations there are considerably lower than at USC or even at Tennessee. If Florida is interested, I think they run a high risk of promoting him to his level of incompetence, based on his track record.

Is Oregon. .572 winning percentage all-time (for the sake of comparison, Fredo is .573 all-time). With a few exceptions, from about 1935 to about 1995, the program was a pretty consistent dumpster fire.

• Click here for link at http://www.winsipedia.com/oregon

Texas boosters have huge sway over the program relative to the 1842 people.

And as a result we churn out reliably terrible decisions ith respect to the football program.

ND seeks out for its BOT almost without exception people who will not gove any backtalk. The insular culture of the leadership is built to sustain and affirm and congratulate itself amd themselves. True we dont have gazillionaire oilmen (well, only a couple) or gazillionaire plaintiffs/mass tort lawyers (well, only a handful) or gazillionaire tech titans. We have a fair share of Wall Street/hedge fund alumni and most of those guys happen to be pretty restrained. And Irish.

Himself at a big time program. It might even be next year. I think he clearly is a very good coach. Just has to get his head straight and build a little humility. I think he has realized that a bit however. As long as he doesn’t go back to USC I’ll root for him. But clearly he is not an option for ND.

And who knows, if he can convince Arch Manning to come to Ole Miss he may be able to win right where he is.

Which is why making definitive statements either way (i.e., "coach X would have been better/worse than coach Y") should elicit little more than eye rolls.

Nobody knows with any degree of certainty who would have outperformed or underperformed vs. Brian Kelly over the past decade or so.

If hiring coaches was rocket science, there would be far fewer swings and misses. Still, I respect those who are more focused on getting things right, despite the number of strikeouts they accumulate along the way, than on continually trying to make themselves believe that maybe the guy they've got is close enough after all--and that with just a few lucky bounces, darn it, he might finally win the big one.

In 2016, I’m not certain anymore. Kelly has clearly improved as a (capital H) Head Coach in the past 5 years. He’s Also vastly upgraded his (royal) effort and talent for recruiting in the past few cycles.

It may or may not bear fruit in the playoff but I think ND is going to be very good over the next 1-3 years.