who would you like to start at qb next yr
Shane Falco
I think that gives ND the best odds of winning a national title in the shortest timeframe.
He will obviously have to get better throwing the ball in order for him to translate his success in cameo roles to a full game, but he also will have 8-plus months to do so. Everything we know about him so far suggests he'll put in the work and be a better passer in 2022.
Not everyone could be Curly.
He is a true dual-threat QB, which opens up so much more of the field in the college game. Sure, he made some throwing errors in limited opportunities (which some on this forum cannot look past), but the arm talent is there, and if you give this kid all of the first-team reps, those errors should lessen.
dinged up and its a critical 3rd and 10 in the next couple of games, I'll take Pyne at this moment. He's more accurate, decisive and has a strong enough arm.
I would say if Buchner can improve his accuracy and there is no reason to think he can't, he would be the obvious starter. With all of the running they ask him to do, they will need a serviceable backup.
Shane Falco
two QBs. He seems to have better field awareness, downfield sight, and "the swagger." Pyne may have enough Joe Montana/Ian Book attitude and skill to be "The One." If you can recall watching the eyes and demeanor of both QBs, Pyne looked the most comfortable and confident. He needs to be given more snaps to prove that Buchner's theoretical "upside" does not necessarily make a winning quarterback. The "QB Whisperer" and his "mini-me junior-self OC/QB Coach" may not have all it takes to elevate theoretical "upside" into applied practice. We shall see.
Edit to replace initial subject line and final sentence.
Uhh, not in an actual game he doesn't. If he's not good enough in practice to warrant more playing time, then he likely shouldn't be taking valuable game snaps away from Buchner (or Coan).
You call Buchner's upside "theoretical" but, want to hang your hat on Pyne maybe, possibly, if we hit the lottery, potentially being "THE ONE." The former is much more likely to be reality.
than practice player. Give him the snaps to prove it! Nothing like being short-sighted and narrow-minded there, Dan Devine. You sound like you are vying for a spot on "Purple-Faced Meathead's" staff. You obviously agree with giving snaps to a theoretical "upsider", instead of making it an actual contest. That is the easy way out, but I guess that's why he gets paid the big bucks - to be a moran.
completion rate and his 7.4 ypa. Little Ronnie might be another Montana too. We should give him game snaps.
time. I would be happy if he were another Ian Book. I can barely remember John Huarte, but will Drew Pyne be better than Terry Hanratty, or Joe Theismann, Tom Clements, Joe Montana, Steve Beuerlein, Tony Rice, Rick Mirer, Kevin McDougal, Ron Powlus, Carlyle Holiday, Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, and Tommy Rees. Some were surrounded by great teams, some played under great coaches, some were fortunate with both, and others not at all fortunate. I have led a spoiled life, and enjoyed watching each of those quarterbacks perform on the field. If you can guarantee me that Tyler Buchner coached by Brian Kelly and Tom Rees will be better than half of those I listed, I will concede. However, that is still hypothetical. I have standards for QBs, and Kelly has screwed up too many QBs this past decade. Why should I trust him with any QB at practice? If he doesn't have the huevos to put them on the playing field in competition, he can kiss my Scots-Irish Catholic ass.
What are your standards?
Drew Pyne may not be another Joe Montana, but if he gets the opportunity to show that he may theoretically be better than any three or four of those I have listed, it is worth snaps in the games that remain this season. I want to see an equal number of snaps in comparable situations on the field, then you can throw around a QB's stats in derision. It's not personal regarding either QB, but it is a shame you do not recognize Pyne's potential "upside." I fight for the underdog!
a competition in the Spring. I don't think you fully appreciate the value of quality game snaps as a rare commodity.
game snaps as a rare commodity. That is precisely why I would like to see Pyne get more of them.
Buchner looked more poised and confident this game, until the fumble. Of course, the shite HC put the collar back on him and attached a leash to the play calls. Purple-Face can f**k up QBs better than he can coach them. Thankfully, he allowed Buchner back in the game. Everything QB is a roll of the dice with the "QB Whisperer." I fear he will find a way to f**k up both the young QBs. God forbid.
Coan has been trending better but hasn't been as expected. Coan probably deserved to lose his job in the first five games.
Buchner isn't ready to start and play an entire game. Pyne is. However, Kelly knows that if he plays Pyne in the short term over Coan, it will send a horrible signal to any future fifth year transfers.
Kelly further knows that if he plays Pyne over Buchner and Pyne has success (imagine ND winning the Fiesta Bowl) Buchner may very well transfer as he didn't sign up to take a back seat to Pyne.
Kelly can sit Buchner for Coan because Coan is gone next year. But if he sits Buchner for Pyne, he risks losing his prized recruit.
Where Pyne is just good enough to win games and hang on to the damn job.
Sure Book won a lot of games - but Jurkovec may end up being a first-round pick. Tough situation.
bed on? That is not a theoretical question, but a practical one. How can anybody believe that Brian and Little Tommy will do any better in tandem? Let Big Game Brian's "shanty" record speak for itself. Is he paid big bucks to take the easy way out? H**y F**k No! It is only at Notre Dame that he be allowed that luxury. Thank you, Jack the (alleged) Molester Protector (JTMP!). Heaven forbid that pile of excrement (Kelly) has to exert himself and make a tough choice. If Buchner can't stand the heat of a playing field competition, he should go where his ego and feelings can be salved. A high quality coach, one with a theoretical upside, does not make assurances to a prized recruit that may eventually be contrary to the best interests of the team, and its players. We know Kelly is not "The One." Therefore, given Kelly's dubious reputation with QBs, that may occur with any number of prized QB recruits (like Buchner). Let in-game play with an equal number of snaps in comparable situations in the final games of the season decide.
His stats, which are pretty good, are just a shade below his junior year at Wisconsin. And his stats for the past four games--or after scheme adjustments have been made--clearly exceed any stretch of four games from his junior year in efficiency and would be the best, most consistent stretch of efficiency rating of his career.
Yes, he struggled in the beginning of the year when he had no protection and the scheme didn't account for this. And yes he has benefitted from mixing Buchner's run threat into the offense.
There just isn't room for Pyne. He hasn't demonstrated to be as good a passer as Coan and isn't quite as good a runner as Buchner.
the best QB we have today for the modified scheme. Pyne was a mix of the other two -- the only one we have that can both run and throw today. That was needed if we stuck with the original slower scheme that relied on a strong OL we do not have and will not have this year (arguably ever again as long as Quinn remains OL coach).
It really is this simple. Pyne isn't playing now because Coan is the best QB with the modified offense and that modified offense is good enough to beat the teams we have left to play. Buchner is playing largely to get him reps for next season because he can be a better version of Pyne if he gets enough reps to learn how to throw and read defenses.
Yes, it looked like we may need a more mobile QB when the QB had to be running for his life. But that's not the same as saying that Pyne would be a better for our standard scheme.
he played in 17, 18, 19, and 20 before this year. No injury redshirt that I know of.
He actually didn’t play in 2020 (jt was incorrect on that) but it was irrelevant because last year was functionally a redshirt year for everyone. Now, jt was correct he played in 2017-19, but it’s possible he still could’ve redshirted in the latter two years with the new rules; however, he played in more than 4 games in each of them (and 2017, for good measure), at least according to und.com. Plus obviously this year.
I thought I read elsewhere that Kelly indicated he could come back, but I’m not sure how unless I’m completely missing something (like some weird quirk that, because he didn’t play last year his “covid year” could be applied to this year instead? But that seems very odd/unlikely).
Quit thinking so logically. The rule is a blanket he still gets another year. So he will start against BC with Phil—get used to it.
The 4-game redshirt rule wasn't in effect for 2017, so since he took the field that year it counted as a full season. So he played the 3 years prior to 2020, which was a free year, and now 2021 is his 4th. He can't come back next year.
you got a free year in 2020 on top of that. This is his 4th year of playing outside of 2020. He is done after this year.
That or Nate Montana. I hear he still has a year left.
At times?
i have the same ?
He was the right QB when they wanted Coan to do five step drops with a bad OL and would only let Buchner hand the ball off. Now that they have mostly gotten away from that, Pyne is a good guy to have if someone gets hurt.
I don't care if he doesn't graduate high school for another year
of the series. One of the things I found interesting going back and reading a few of the books a few years ago was the depiction of college football. For books written in the 50s and 60s, Clair Bee details athlete only dorms, boosters, paying players, and other aspects of the underbelly of the sport which some like to think of as a modern development but have always been swirling the sport.
It was also a favorite of mine.
were the ones that I read.
They belonged to my Uncle Leo. I had to wash my hands, handle every book with care, and could not take them home. He had many good books, Sci-Fi and other genres. I had hoped to inherit them. No one in the local family was that lucky.
Edit last sentence for grammer.
My brothers loved them, so I had to check them out along with the Hardy Boys mysteries (and the Nancy Drew books, of course). Chip was unstoppable!
Great athlete and the all American boy!
Clair Bee’s kids tried cashing in by re-releasing the books with “modern updates” which mostly means they changed a lot of names to Cody, Zach & Brandon
Buchner has been nominated as #2 by the coaches and has been getting more reps in games and likely practices. Based on the games I've seen, Pyne has performed as good as the other two in his limited role. Assuming Pyne is still here next year, I'd like to see an honest competition between the two.
The coaches see it. I see it. Sorry that you don't see it.
Hopefully he can be coached to maximize it. Pyne is not even close to him in talent. Neither is Coan honestly, he just has worlds more experience. If Pyne starts that is a problem in development. Pyne is smaller, slower and probably a slightly weaker arm. I am not sure why people are negative on Buchner. The two pick vs Va Tech were bad but they also lose that game without him and outside that he has been damn good.
I responded accordingly. Not sure why you didn't.
I’ll worry about 2022 in 2022.
of our other two qb’s and at this point, better equipped to run the offense, has no effect on next years starter? You really cannot answer the OP’s question in a vacuum.
The coaches have already elevated Buchner over Pyne, both on the field and in practice. It's no longer a 50/50 proposition.
If you ever post something of value, I will praise you until the cows come home.
Unfortunately, Kelly's track record is pretty poor when it comes to development of QB's with high ceilings - Crist, Golson, and Wimbush all lost their starting jobs. He seems to do better at getting serviceable production out of QBs with low ceilings and/or limited experience.
Or even express a preference for Pyne?
We're not rebuilding. If the coaching staff believes Buchner gives us the best chance to beat Ohio St on 9/3/2022 then that'll be a good sign.
or pass successfully on passing downs. He has plenty of time to learn that, but if I needed to pick one to start today, it would be Pyne.
Of the few public passing reps, I've seen a number of real clunkers. People got excited about his spring game performance, but if you look beyond the highlights he had a high percentage of poor throws. The pass he threw against Carolina in the red zone on our last drive was particularly ugly, but it's not remembered because he got bailed out by a generous pass interference call. But the throw scared me in thinking about where he would be if he had to take over the job now.
I'd expect to start Pyne over him next year without notable improvement in consistency.
he has made some great throws. A deep ball to Austin, and a dart to Mayer over the middle in a tight window stood out to me. The latter especially struck me.
He's also had some real ugly throws and interceptions. (Though, Pyne has just been more lucky with some balls that probably should have been picked).
I like Pyne, I like his confidence, I like his ability to come in and sling the ball around. But if Buchner doesn't beat him out next year, it'll be a real disappointment. Frankly, if Buchner hasn't beat him out by the time the post-season rolls around I'll be disappointed.
Tech and Cincinnati when he was asked to do more with the offense than just be a change of pace QB. Against USC, NC and Navy he was 5 of 5 with a TD in his limited role.
Overall he has 3 interceptions in 25 passes. Maybe he could improve if he played a whole game against a bad team, but right now he is effective in a limited role throwing play action passes on running downs and not throwing on third and long.
And Buchner stood a little taller and quieter on the deep ball than we've seen from him before. I would love to see him improve that consistency enough to take a step forward. But he's got so much noise in his motion, it's going to take some work. Kizer struggled with consistency. He would have some head scratching misses and follow it with a beautiful strike. He evidently wasn't impressing people in practice as a freshman to get buzz. So maybe Buchner can make a similar leap. But I'd take Kizer's base mechanics over Buchner's.
Granted it wasn’t much playing time, but I thought Pyne looked like a better thrower than Buchner and a better runner than Coan (obviously). I don’t follow recruiting or practice reports, so I don’t know if what I saw lines up with reality, but I was looking forward to seeing more of him after the Wisconsin game. If anything, he seemed to have more of the playbook available than Buchner has.
He’s a gamer. Seems to have a very high level of confidence. That is not to be underestimated
than Coan or Buchner. He seemed to have a better pocket presence as well. As passers, I'd rate them Pyne then Coan then Buchner.
As runners, I'd rate them Buchner then Pyne then Coan.
Pocket presence, Pyne, then Coan, then Buchner.
In his limited time, he's been a 50 percent passer. I don't recall any passes against Wisconsin, where he did go 6 of 8, that stood out as impressive. If I recall, his TD against Wisconsin was a simple, open pitch and catch slant that was a little low. He doesn't have a particularly strong arm and he doesn't seem to use his body that efficiently. That leads to inaccuracy down field. It led to an underthrow of Lenzy on his TD pass against UC, but he had a lot of space so it was a fine play for a jump ball. His best throw was probably an out to Mayer against UC that he had to throw away from the defense that had decent coverage.
On the other hand, Coan with time has been very accurate and he throws a very good deep ball. And he appears to have a stronger arm. He also, with time, has been good at anticipating where the receiver will be, like his comeback touchdown pass against SC that he threw to a spot. Yes, with pressure he has been rattled. But despite struggles, I've still seen him under pressure stand firm, step up, and make important throws when it has been crunch time. And the scheme adjustments have helped reduce his shortcomings a lot.
That said, if seen even worse throws from Buchner in the limited number of snaps. So it would take some serious work for Buchner to jump Pyne for everyday play in my eyes.
mentioning. Nor have I seen much accuracy on deep throws. He has missed a LOT of open receivers downfield, some overthrows and some underthrows. Pyne has a strong arm and a quicker release than Coan, who seems to have to wind up to throw downfield.
Every quarterback overthrows some deep balls. But Coan would rank in the top three of deep ball throwers ND has had since the Davie era. Clausen and Kizer would be the ones ahead of him. He consistently gives his guys a chance to make plays.
But keep some perspective. Coan is a 65 percent passer this season. And after we shuffled our offensive line and made scheme adjustments, he's been over 70 percent three times.
Yes, Pyne has a quicker release. That may help him in short passes. But I've seen nothing to indicate he has a strong arm that can effectively throw down the field. I'd call Coan's a solid college arm. Pyne's looks worse.
Like Bruce Banner would say “You won’t like me when I’m angry.”
And that's why Pyne is ahead of Buchner on the depth chart right now. If you need someone to run the offense for the full game, Pyne is in a better place to do that right now (though Buchner has been improving).
But by the time next fall rolls around, if Buchner can't beat out Pyne, something is wrong. That's no slight to Pyne either.
His last snaps were in the Cincy game and Buchner gets a few plays every quarter
He is.
Of course that might not be reality. But, at least so far this year, Pyne has filled Coan's role when Coan can't go, and Buchner has been more of a package or change of pace qb.
If Coan broke his leg getting off the bus, I'd guess Pyne would get the start.
for UC. Nevertheless, Pyne did fill in against Wisconsin with Buchner available.
he will be 66 years old next year. Don't know if his body will hold up.
If he comes back, it’ll have to be as a southpaw.