Go on, get out of my sight.

“The Rock Poster of 2021” award, but stranger things have happened. I share your view regarding the development of ND’s athletes in all sports into quality men and woman. Guilty of prejudice toward ND football coaches. Lumping them all together. Each is a coach for my team and I love them all. One Best Coached Game, however, stands out and must be mentioned — Coach Terry Brennan’s upset of Oklahoma in the mid-fifties. Memorable. Historic. Inspired.

Your closing line presents that tired line that you don’t want to see the “values” of ND compromised to achieve National Championships. ND leaders have perpetuated this nonsense for years – that somehow it is impossible to have both an incredibly successful football team and athletes that meet the University’s expectations regarding academic performance and graduation. ND people wear this on their sleeve as if it is some badge of honor – we do things the “right way”. This is insulting to many other institutions who graduate their players – many of course that don’t have the facilities, TV contract, national appeal, and history of ND – and it is insulting to those of us in the “Big Fan” category that you deride that expect both.

I also think the “trade off” line is based on a myth – that ND is significantly superior to other football programs with respect to academic results. The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports based at the University of Central Florida produces an annual assessment of the academic records of Bowl-bound NCAA football programs. ND’s Academic Progress Rate was 970 (APR is an NCAA composite – each student-athlete receiving athletically related financial aid earns one point for staying in school and one point for being academically eligible. A team’s total points are divided by total points possible and multiplied by 1000 to come up with APR). The other teams in the semifinal were as follows – Alabama 990, Clemson 993, OSU 985. The average for bowl teams was 968, so ND is certainly above average but not enough, in my view, to go congratulating ourselves.

For straight graduation rates, for 2019-20, the NCAA reports ND at 91%. Alabama comes in at 88%, Clemson 83%, and Ohio State at 69%. Wisconsin is at 91%, Stanford at 90%. Looks like ND ranks 35th among 255 teams reported. Of course, these statistics don’t assess the relative challenge of particular majors or schools, but to suggest that somehow ND is superior to many other schools because ND graduates its football players is at best a dated concept.

Otter hits the nail on the head. Kelly is a jerk. Seems to actually revel in being a jerk. But it is not just being a jerk – shit I’m a 49er fan and I used to say that Jim Harbaugh was a jerk but it is easy to root for him because he’s “our jerk.” Kelly’s persona goes far beyond that of a jerk – he’s one who likes to throw others under the bus. How many examples do we need – “get used to it”, the “atrocious” snapping of the football in the NC State monsoon, and his “Zero. None. Absolutely none” response to the question of his responsibility for NCAA violations. The “Big Fans” don’t appreciate his seemingly endless pattern of blaming others for ND’s failures. Frankly, I’ll never get over Kelly and Swarbrick’s comments after Declan Sullivan’s death. “It was a beautiful day,” the investigator quoted Kelly as saying. “It was 68 degrees and I remember looking up 11:54 a.m. and the wind was 22 miles per hour.” (LA Times, April 6, 2019) Keep telling yourself that Kelly.

Set aside graduation rates and personality, in the end Holtz put ND in a position to win – both because of his football strategy and ability to motivate. Holtz was 32-20-2 vs. teams ranked in the top 25. I believe Kelly is .500. If we whittled that down to record vs. top 10, I would bet the divide is even more significant. Has Kelly “raised the bar” from where ND was under Davie, Willingham, and Weis? Sure. No one is going to debate that. But don’t tell me that I can’t expect more. Don’t tell me that I can’t expect Holtz level success, excitement, and respect.

I do agree with you about Holtz's final few years. People revered Holtz, but that didn't stop us from bitching about the results.

But the critiques of Holtz should be looked at as MORE reason to be critical of Kelly. Holtz's 1994 season was horrible...despite finishing over 500. He was 17 - 6 in his final two years, a .739 clip, and people were looking to get rid of him. Compare that to Kelly. If we forget about his vacated wins, I believe Kelly's record at Notre Dame would be 102-39, or .723. If people were critical of Holtz for a short run of .739-level performance, why not be critical of Kelly for the same thing.

Also, I don't think you're being accurate in your depiction of what the situation with the team was when Kelly took over. Doing so makes Weis look worse than he was and that contrast makes Kelly look more successful. You assert that Kelly stabilized a team that was top heavy with offensive weapons but no defense. Our scoring defense ranked 23, 24, and 2 in Kelly's first three years at Notre Dame. Kelly had 4 offensive players drafted after his first three seasons at ND, and 8 defensive players drafted. The cupboard was hardly bare.

Re: the ten win seasons, you do realize teams play more games now, right? By the ten-win standard, Knute Rockne had 5 one-loss seasons and three undefeated seasons that were failures.

Finally, regarding wanting the "big fans" to appreciate the fact that we're better than 100 or so other programs, I think that misses a big aspect of what makes Notre Dame special. It's not enough to be an elite academic institution that has a very good football team. The point is that we believe we can be elite in both areas and don't think we should settle for less than that. We realize it's not easy, and that's part of the reason so many are so passionate in their demands.

I agree with you that sometimes the tone of people's posts can go over the top. But I don't think many people get that way because they think Kelly has an easy job. They get that way because they care so much and wish Kelly appeared to care to the same degree.

I don't think its a troll post. I think it took courage to post it.

I agree with some of your points. I was a student during Lou's tenure and people were definitely getting sick of Lou's style. I love Lou but he drove me crazy at times with how conservative he was. I honestly wasn't upset when he was replaced by Davie. I was quite optimistic. Looking back, I was an idiot and had no perspective on how hard it is to put a winner on the field year in and year out.

I also agree that many, if not most fans wanted a high powered offense. We all loved Tony Rice, but we were looking for Ron Powlus to throw for 400 yards a game.

You lose me with your opinion of Kelly. And I hope you will hear me when I make this point and not dismiss it. Brian Kelly is an asshole.

He's an asshole. When he's winning I'm aware of it and when he is losing it is insufferable. He's a liar and I am disappointed that he's associated with Notre Dame. That has nothing to do with his football coaching chops. I simply don't like the guy and I don't think that makes me an outlier.

As far as his coaching? He's done above average. Whether or not that is acceptable to the fans is one issue. The problem I have is that it is acceptable to Brian Kelly. The great coaches are eaten up inside when they don't win. Famously they live and sleep at their offices. Frank Leahy ran his health into the ground. Joe Gibbs had to walk away from the NFL after 3 super bowl wins because his health couldn't take the effort he needed to put in to be successful.

Is Brian Kelly similarly committed to success? That's my problem with him and with ND.

And I appreciate the grace with which you took in the post. But make no mistake. It is a troll post. It's the second such time in as many weeks or so that the poster made a post and did not engage in any response to the post. It's a classic look-how-much-better-and-knowledgeable-I-am-than-those-NDNation-meanies-by-responding-to-strawman-arguments post. It's intentionally incendiary. The arguments it raises have been discussed to death here, and the shortcomings of his analysis have been amply displayed. Posting this doesn't take courage.

I appreciate the heads up. If the post was not made in sincerity then I wasted a bit of time. But it did feel good to sum up my thoughts on Brian Kelly.

Kelly’s asshole-ishness is also why I believe that he has reached his ceiling at ND. Posters will point out that many coaches are assholes (look at Saban and Meyer) but I would call them pricks and not assholes. They get pissed off at losing and incompetence but have the wherewithal to identify and fix problems, partially through self-awareness. They also empower people to reach their potential.

Kelly believes that he has reached the pinnacle so everything he does and says must be gold. That’s really what makes him an asshole. It’s also why he will never reach the elite level; he lacks self-awareness and surrounds himself with enablers.

Clearly they don't matter to you, because as a BIG fan during the Ara time, we didn't start playing in bowls until later in his tenure.

But let's define major bowl wins

BK - 0 (and that includes all of his previous coaching jobs. He's never won a major bowl game. Moreover, he's never even been competitive in one).

Lou

88 Fiesta - W (National Championship)
89 Orange - W
91 Sugar - W
92 Cotton - W
93 Cotton - W

During Holtz's time in South Bend, we played in 9 major bowl games, going 5-4.

Before ND Holtz won the following
77 Orange (Arkansas) - W (which also allowed ND to win a national title).


Please never mention BK in comparison to Holtz, ever again. In the words of Nina Simone's family

"Cool story but please take Lou's name out your mouth. For the rest of your life."

Sounds like you're trying to stir some controversy.

We should be happy the lads get to play. Who cares about winning titles. That’s such an old metric to measure success by. After all, none of the coaches that won titles at ND had to follow rules while winning titles and at the same or higher overall winning percentage.

Also, Kelly has won all the second tier bowls that matter most now. Never scoring more than 14 in a title or playoff game should not matter.

BK has and continues to get most anything he wants. He really has no excuses for not producing a national championship in 11 seasons. He’s been woefully outcoached in most any game that mattered. He’s being propped up by people who are putting themselves above the University by catering to their own self serving interests, which is at a minimum a great disrespect to those who built the football program.

It also doesn’t help BK that he has deflected blame on gross mismanagement involving academic fraud and a student death. If you reflect on it all in totality, it is embarrassing and quite sad. The money thrown at the program and simultaneously moving the goal posts by lowering expectations and watering down the schedule is criminal. So please don’t compare BK to Lou, Ara, Devine or anyone else for that matter.

From Penicillin

1nd1 is clearly from the greater Bed-Stuy area of Brooklyn. He's hip and cool and you and others may be missing out on a lot of the urban nuances and double entendres with which his post is laden. I am originally from the CT - or the 06430 - and right near Brooklyn so I get where he's going.

What 1nd1 is saying is that our sentiments have been lost on chasing "game," aka "bitches," when we should focus on business or money. This is consistent with theories espoused by our AD, who has consistently argued that as long as we are in the "discussion," we properly chase business. Too many fans focus on the number of stars when we lose site of the fact that the goal of ND Football is business.

You're welcome.

As I've learned, I'll leave any discussions of Lou to those on the board who remember those days.

I just want to correct your errors re: Weis. I dislike Weis more and more in retrospect because of his inability to develop talent and inability to recruit talent that fit his scheme, but you can't claim he didn't have defensive weapons or claim he only brought in 2 or 3 star talent. In fact, based on a quick glance of their last 4 full recruiting cycles, Weis ('06-'09) brought in more blue chip defensive prospects than Kelly ('18-'21) has.

Here are Weis's 22 blue-chip defensive prospects by 247 Consensus ranking:

2006 (3 blue chip defensive prospects):
CB Darrin Walls
CB Raeshon McNeil
LB Toryan Smith
2007 (5):
CB Gary Gray
LB Kerry Neal
DT Ian Williams
LB Steve Paskorz
LB Brian Smith
2008 (10):
DE Ethan Johnson
LB Darius Fleming
LB Steve Filer
S Jamoris Slaughter
S Dan McCarthy
DT Sean Cwynar
LB Anthony McDonald
CB Robert Blanton
DT Brandon Newman
DE Kapron Lewis-Moore
2009 (4):
LB Manti Teo
DT Tyler Stockton
LB Zeke Motta
S EJ Banks

By comparison, over the last 4 years, here are Kelly's 21 blue-chip defensive recruits:
2018 (7 blue chip defensive prospects):
CB Houston Griffith
LB Shayne Simon
LB Jack Lamb
S Derrik Allen
DT Jayson Ademilola
LB Bo Bauer
CB Noah Boykin
2019 (9):
S Kyle Hamilton
DT Jacob Lacey
CB Isaiah Rutherford
DE Isaiah Foskey
CB KJ Wallace
DE NaNa Osafo-Mensah
DT Hunter Spears
DE Howard Cross
LB JD Bertrand
2020 (2):
DE Jordan Botelho
DE Rylie Mills
2021 (3):
DT Gabriel Rubio
CB Philip Riley
LB Prince Kollie

In the last two classes, we've taken 5 blue-chip defensive prospects. That ties Charlie's last full class and the transition class of '10 (only Louis Nix) as the worst two-year stretch since Willingham.

Maybe Freeman will be able to recruit this year, but there's nothing to support your theory that things are looking great from a defensive recruiting standpoint.

I also find it laughable that you don't want to see the University compromise it's values to achieve national titles when you're more than happy to support a guy who had to vacate wins due to academic issues and an NCAA violation.

Lou did not install the offense of Texas/Neb/OK. He ran a power game with some option mixed in.
But I like your remix of the Victory March: "what tho the odds be great or small, Ol' Notre Dame is better than a hundred or so other teams"

we thought, and Coach Elston was forced to post this in defense of his bosses.

Kelly has been very fortunate for the following:
1. A watered down schedule. Frankly it sucks and just about any competent coach would win 10 games with it (and they're 12 game seasons...not 11 game season)
2. USC has been down. If Weis had coached against the teams that Kelly went up against, he still might be coach. Between Kiffin, Sark, Orgeron (1x), and Helton, SC has been in a down cycle for Kelly's entire ND coaching career. What happens if he went up against Carroll led teams...38-0 losses is what happens
3. Watered down expectations...people "are just happy to be here" with regards to 10 win seasons and the playoffs. He gets his arse schooled against those teams, but somehow a huge swath of ND administrators are excited about "getting close" and just think ND is "lucky to be here"


Kelly isn't EVEN close to Holtz's performance when you consider the schedules he played against. In '88, Kelly doesn't beat Michigan, Miami, or SC and ND plays in the Gator Bowl.

Gosh, your post suckec

I get pissed off when I hear anyone say, "Best since Lou," or something similar. Like you said, Kelly has been very fortunate with scheduling and the talent he inherited.

A more accurate statement would be: "Slightly better than Weis. But barely, and not meaningfully."

Here's a fun game. Guess the ND coach:

- 0 national championships
- 0 major bowl wins
- 40% of teams qualify for a major bowl
- 20.5-pt average losing margin in major bowls
- .143 (1-6) vs. Top 5 teams
- 0 Heisman trophies

That's not great, and that's Charlie Weis. Now, duplicate that resume, make a few line items worse, and you get Brian Kelly.

- 0 national championships
- 0 major bowl wins
- 36% of teams qualify for a major bowl
- 22-pt average losing margin in major bowls
- .125 (1-7) vs. Top 5 teams
- 0 Heisman trophies

But yeah, let's get excited about those ~2 extra wins Kelly averages per year (9.27 W, 3.55 L) vs Weis (7 W, 5.4 L). Which evaporates down to just 7.36 W per year once vacated wins are removed.

Kelly's keys to success are lowered expectations, lack of accountability, and occasionally navigating weak schedules before getting curbstomped by talented teams.

"here come the Irish."