You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
I think this team is dead in the water. Jimenez is an elite prospect and I don't think continuing to dump elite young talent to get a starting pitcher where you need a lot more than that is a wise idea. I realize Quintana is wrapped up for a few years at a good price but this team isn't going anywhere in my opinion even with Quintana.
they dealt with the dark side i.e. the White Sox and he also thinks the Cubs gave up too much and that JQ is average.
then I could see myself being concerned about being haunted years down the road by the Cubs former top prospect roaming the outfield as a perennial all star for the White Sox. Eloy could end up being that good. The reality for me as a fan is that I don't mind the Sox and I don't live in Chicago, so I don't really care that they dealt with them. The two teams are in different leagues and play each other just a few times a year. Not a competitive rival to shy away from trading with for any logical reason, as I see it.
As we've discussed in this thread, I, along with most others, disagree with your friend in his assessment of Quintana. Linked is a nice article in fangraphs that outlines evidence in favor of Quintana as a quality starter better than I can. I hope we and Theo are right on this one - not another Garza, please. I'm optimistic.
But getting Quintana is cause for joy. He's a top of the rotation starter who's under contract for three more years at a moderate price; and with that many years left on the contract, the Cubs will have the opportunity to sweeten the pot with an extension if they like what they see a year or two out. Jimenez (along with the others) is a steep but fair price to pay for that guy with that contract.
Dylan Cease might be great, too; but he's in low A. He's years away.
The White Sox fan part of me likes the trade, too. I'm as certain Jimenez will excel as I have ever been about a prospect.
Part of my disappointment is probably due to watching Eloy play for the SB Cubs a few times. I agree that he looks damn good. After trading Gleybar Torres, I was down to Jimenez as a guy I got to watch in single A that I was confident would be a MLB star for the big league Cubs. I'll get over it.
While both are outstanding prospects, I think Jimenez is the better of the two. Jimenez brought an excellent pitcher for multiple years, so I can live with the loss. Torres brought a relief pitcher for a few months, so his career is an especially high price paid.
The Cubs probably wouldn't have won the World Series without Chapman, but I'll always wonder if a less expensive relief pitcher would have been enough.
Friday would be ideal.
Looking solely at 2017, the Cubs can certainly win the division and get to the postseason with Quintana's help. That alone beats the alternative of missing the playoffs entirely. Once in the tournament, anything can happen. The cubs just need to get hot at the right time while Washington does its typical October swoon and the Dodger pitchers fail to duplicate their regular season dominance.
In the longer term, there is a need to replace Lester and probably Arrieta as well.
Nobody expects the Cubs to make much of an effort to re-sign him.
happen again. Maybe they'll let the Sox raid their farm system again for Robertson.
Or you know, he could go back to the Yankees and relegate Tyler Clippard to the mop-up role he was born for.
Or Eloy sitting in the minors another year. Prospects don't always pan out.
Cubs needed pitching for this and next and the next year after that. It's a good move.
right after signing him?
Seems like the most logical move to me. Judge seems like he can stay in the OF without being a liability for several more seasons before the DH slot beckons.
As I would like to, but he seems like a pretty good fielder. I would have no problem moving him or Harper to left if it meant signing Bryce. First base, if Bird can't figure it out, might be an option too, Frazier looks like he is a talent as well, so outfield all of a sudden might get crowded, but they can figure it out. DH is for Otani though, that is who I really want.
The guy is a damn good pitcher, by all indications a great teammate, never has been on the DL and probably has four prime years left at least.
As a Sox fan, I hate to see him go, but of course he had to.
gotten Sale last winter? I am just curious, because I would much rather have gotten Sale. Maybe that wouldn't have been enough given the Red Sox offer.
I would almost have been in favor of the Cubs trading Arrieta and keeping the prospects and trying to sign free agent starters over the winter.
I think Arrieta wants too much money and more importantly years. He has had 1 great year (2015), 1 very good year (2016), 1 good year (2014) and 1 OK year. I don't think you give him $150 million 2 years for him
I might be OK with regrouping in 2018. I think the Cubs need more than Quintana to win the Division in 2017. I know he is a nice pitcher and under control for a couple years, but I would rather buy pitching in the off-season than give up a top 10 outfield prospect.
The response from Hahn was that any package from the Cubs had to *include* Kris Bryant.
As far as pitching in the off-season, I don't think a pitcher like Quintana was going to come any cheaper in the trade market. And the pickings in FA are slim and expensive (Darvish, Tanaka (he has an opt-out so only a maybe), Cueto (same as Tanaka) and Arrieta are the best of the bunch).
...unless they also trade for Sonny Gray, Chris Archer or any of the other guys who have been rumored for a few months.
They are losing Arrieta and Lackey. Quintana will help replace one. Need a replacement for the other as well.
To me, he is an innings eater at this point.
Disclaimer: I haven't seen him pitch this year.
I see 2 consecutive starts a couple of months ago in which he gave up 15 Earned Runs. Those 2 starts did indeed happen, let's not deny that, but they have a disproportionate effect on his ERA relative to the other 16 starts. His ERA was 5.60 after those two starts at the end of May and has been coming down since. Other metrics are solid (K/BB, etc) from what I've read today. (edit to add: as noted by Harmonica below while I was typing this)
Also even if he is an innings eater, a solid 3 or 4 starter innings eater is quite valuable in itself, and something the Cubs desperately need now and beyond. I think he's a good bit better than that description.
In looking further, you can see that in the six games in which he got ND'ed, the Sox were 6-0.
But in his last seven starts:
2.70 ERA, 10.1 K/9
To dismiss a pitcher who has been consistently one of the top 10 in baseball for a bad two months would be a mistake for the Gar Formans of the world rather than the Theo Epsteins.
Even with his "bad" 2017 performance, Quintana is still 18th in MLB in WAR. That is higher than any Cub.
about two months ago which examined the possibility that Quintana's 2017 (to that point, obviously) difficulty in locating his pitches may have been an early warning of shoulder troubles.
I don't remember where I saw the article; if I did, I'd share it here.
Hopefully (I say that as a White Sox fan who would like to see him continue to do well), his considerably better recent performances have dispelled that scenario.
These are the exact types of moves I fear from the Cubs that will make them WS contenders for the next several years.
And they still have a surplus of talent, and a front office that knows how to reload the farm system quickly if needed.
Right now they have 3 solid starters - one who is aging (Lester), one declining and almost definitely leaving (Arrieta), and Hendricks coming back from injury. That leaves 2 for next year. They'll have to rebuild their rotation for next year with 2 additions. Quintana is controlled through 2020, hence his high value and return for the Sox. The Cubs can't put all their hopes for their future rotation on finding 2 FA starters this offseason. Might as well start the process of rebuilding the rotation now, while also fortifying the chances of making the playoffs this Fall and being competitive in them. The Dodgers and Nationals will still be better but Quintana will give them a much better chance in a 5-7 game series, assuming they get there. The window is open now.
the Cubs need Quintana -- or a like talent -- not just to make a run in 2017, but to help all of their young position talent, which presumably will bounce back in 2018 if not in 2017.
Arrieta is probably gone, Lester is pretty old. Let's be optimistic and presume that Hendricks returns to his 2016 form for the next few years.
Rizzo, Bryant, et al need pitching. There's no reason to presume that Quintana won't be a solid #2 starter for the rest of his contract.
I think this is a good trade for the Cubs, even if they don't make the playoffs in '17. (I'm also happy with it from a White Sox perspective.)
Cubs aren't punting on 2017 and 2018. Even if they gave up on 2017, they would need to get pitching for 2018 and beyond. The price for that pitching was likely to be Jimenez even in the off-season. And if they found a place to play Jimenez he wouldn't have made an impact until 2019.
My instant gut reaction was that it sucks to give up a top 10 prospect, but it makes sense given the Cubs needs and where they are at in their window of contention.
Michael Fulmer. My guess is quite a bit more than the Cubs had to give up for Quintana.
can't afford to pay a king's ransom in prospects for talent. The cost control for those players is too important to teams with limited flexibility in the budget. The Brewers did make two such trade (arguably a third, depending on what you think of 2011 Shaun Marcum), and both times led to a playoff appearance. However, the Greinke trade (and subsequent Inception trades) gave KC several foundational pieces for the World Series teams. Greinke lives on in the forms of Chase Anderson and Isan Diaz in Milwaukee, but they would have been better served with 6+ years of Escobar and Cain plus Shields and Davis in, say, 2014.
and start over. Fulmer at his age could bring a Chris Sale like bevy of prospects.
It's not typical to see guys that young get traded to kick-start a rebuild.
beyond that your point stands it is atypical for someone like him to be traded. Past the early UCL issues and success in the bigs plus long term control is hard to part with.
Seems to be a good trade all around.
but the White Sox had two of the top seven last season (assuming that your list hasn't changed too radically since the start of this season).
I hope (and might be starting to believe) that Kenny Williams is stuffed inside a gorilla costume in a cage with a live gorilla, headed for some "experiment."
Or similarly incapacitated.
it's quite possible.
I hope the Sox enjoy having Big Game James instead of the #100 prospect.
Of course some of his moves look like Kenny.
and why, although I'm optimistic in the aftermath of the Sale, Eaton and Quintana trades, I hedged my position elsewhere in this thread.
But it appears that Hahn is no Gar/Pax, God bless John Paxson.
make changes...They hired a new scouting director and made changes in the player development ranks...The Bulls seem to just double down on sucking...I do think Kenny tends to be a punching bag at times and more of the flack should be directed at Jerry..My understanding is a lot of the short term thinking that the Sox engaged in game from Jerry. He was afraid of a long term rebuild
Jerry is actually hands off except for contracts, but loyalty is everything to him and Kenny is 100% loyal and has lifetime employment if he wants it. He lets the baseball people make the baseball decisions while retaining veto power which he doesn't use much at all. Jerry bought into it, but the ideas were all Kenny. It was the same before Kenny with Schueler - Schueler is the guy who traded for Jaime Navarro, a trade that lives in infamy - and before that with Himes. Who knows if it was Kenny who blessed the rebuild or if he let Hahn make the decision, but I don't care, as long as they finally have and have stopped signing over-the-hill guys named "Adam". Yes, the rebuild did have to be blessed by Jerry as does any big picture thing, of course, but the personnel details he leaves to the baseball people.
How Mike runs the Bulls - and Mike is running the Bulls now - I have no idea, though I suspect it's similar. Yeah, of course Jerry put him there, I know.
I come here not to bury or praise either Reinsdorf, just setting the record straight. Yes, of course he is ultimately responsible, he's the guy at the top. But he doesn't get into the weeds as much as you think. And he shouldn't. The only thing worse than a cheap owner is a meddlesome owner.
Let's take a look at his ownership "career."
He bought the Bulls after Michael Jordan's first season, meaning that Reinsdorf inherited the greatest basketball player of my lifetime, perhaps ever.
Excluding the seasons during which the "inherited" Jordan played for the Bulls, Reinsdorf's Bulls teams have reached the conference finals exactly once in 20 seasons. That's it.
Excluding the 1994 strike-destroyed season and 2017, Reinsdorf has owned the White Sox for 35 seasons. His White Sox have won exactly 1 World Series, 1 American League championship and five division titles.
His teams have won a total of three post-season series in 35 seasons; fortunately, all three came during the same season.
And this guy's in the basketball hall of fame?
He's an abysmal failure as an owner.
I'm hoping he had Hahn bound and gagged in the closet for that one.
line starter they seem to desperately need, and the Sox stockpile more prospects, and double down on their rebuild commitment.
You build up the farm to make deals like this. The rare trade that's good for both teams.
and while I've always been a Cub fan I actually don't mind the White Sox at all. I'd absolutely love a crosstown World Series and could live with either result.
Montgomery is more effective out of the bull pen. Butler will get perhaps one more start till Hendricks finishes his rehab.
This team has four locked-in starters. Lester-Arrieta-Quintana-Hendricks (Hendricks is due back shortly.)
Montgomery will go back to the pen which is where he belongs. So a good bullpen is improved.
Butler, Anderson and Lackey can compete for that 5th spot. Plus, w/ off days, it can be skipped relatively often. Personally, I think Butler has earned that spot.
Maybe his stuff plays up there? Even though he hasn't been any great shakes, I'd rather see what Butler has for the rest of the year rather than Lackey.
I'd rather DFA Lackey then have him become the cancer he'd become in the bullpen.
They ought to be rather good by 2019.
It's 9 of the top 68.
Not since they drafted the likes of Thomas, Ventura, Fernandez and McDowell.
Jimenez & Cease are the Cubs #1 & #2 prospects.