Is Dean Smith the Bobby Bowden of CBB?
by Tex Francisco (2017-04-04 18:04:33)

Basically, he ran a great program that attracted the best talent in the country, and while he may be regarded as somewhat innovative at a macro level, he lost most tactical battles against coaches with equal or superior talent.


I never heard Smith say dadgummit *
by irishrock  (2017-04-05 00:00:12)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I don't know about the last part regarding Bowden
by bluengold07  (2017-04-04 23:49:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

He was 8-5 against Spurrier and was 6-2 all-time against Tom Osbourne, and 21-9-1 in bowls at Florida State. I realize he probably should have won more than two national titles given the amount of talent he had, but it was an impressive resume.


Smith was 24-14 vs. Krzyzewski
by ShermanOaksND  (2017-04-05 21:28:23)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

18-13 if you don't count K's first 3 seasons, all of which were below .500. And neither stat includes UNC's game during 1995, when K was on medical leave and Duke decided not to count those games against his record.


Dean Smith made 11 Final Fours but won only two titles.
by G.K.Chesterton  (2017-04-04 20:05:09)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

He and Tom Izzo are in similar territory. Roy Williams would have been in the neighborhood if he hadn't won last night.


Four of those came against Wooden-coached UCLA teams
by ShermanOaksND  (2017-04-05 21:23:32)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

during UCLA's streak of 7 straight NCAA titles (1967, 1968, 1969, 1972). It's pretty hard to count those against Smith.

Of Smith's other 7 Final Fours, he won 2, which is as close as possible to what the odds would yield if all Final Four teams had equal talent and coaching ability.


He had Michael Jordon and Sam Perkins on the
by 1978Irish  (2017-04-05 10:06:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

same team for 3 years and won only 1 championship and that was the year he also had James Worthy.


The old joke
by tf86  (2017-04-05 12:26:01)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Q. How do you hold Michael Jordan under 20 points?
A. Make sure Dean Smith is coaching him.

I don't think Dean Smith, to put it charitably, realized what a special talent he had in Michael Jordan. To be completely fair, however, he wasn't the only one.


It's, "who was the last coach to hold MJ under 20 points?" *
by IrishGeek  (2017-04-05 16:38:15)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Not quite
by El Kabong  (2017-04-05 17:58:18)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Who's the last guy to hold MJ under 20 points?

If you say "coach", you give away the joke.


Perhaps. The listener may not be suspecting it's his own...
by IrishGeek  (2017-04-05 18:28:09)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

coach. But I could see that.


Correction: Dean Smith & Dan Dakich *
by Ajax  (2017-04-05 13:41:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


My recollection is that Smith had more to do with
by 1978Irish  (2017-04-05 14:08:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

limiting Jordan in tat game than Dakich did. Smith kept Jordan on the bench for long stretches with 2 and 3 fouls. Smith should have played him and protected him on defense.


Jordan still took 14 shots in 26 minutes
by Ajax  (2017-04-05 18:36:14)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

(his average FGA's was 14.5) and he eventually fouled out in a 4 point loss, which FWIW was the half time deficit.


You should have followed your own link
by tf86  (2017-04-06 09:33:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Jordan's season average that year was under 20 ppg -- 19.6 to be exact. Not a huge difference, of course, but still . . .


MJ played with 3 other future first rounders
by Ajax  (2017-04-06 17:52:40)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

(Perkins, Daugherty, Smith) and was in the pre-shot clock and pre 3 point era, so a 20 ppg is nothing to sneeze about.

Dean Smith really did not hold him down, it was the era and the talent around him that kept his average around 20.

By point of comparison, Danny Manning averaged 25 ppg in his last season at Kansas AND PLAYED WITH ZERO NBA TALENT.

He averaged 14.5 shot attempts per game and versus IU he took 14 in 26 minutes and ended up with 13 points.

My gosh, Westbrook averaged 12.7 ppg as a soph at UCLA. He played on a team with 2 other first rounders and high second round pick. Nobody said later that Howland held him down.


Westbrook, while a great player, is not a very
by tf86  (2017-04-07 13:54:35)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Appropriate comparison to Jordan.

My point in mentioning your link was that it had a link to UNC's team, which showed that Jordan averaged slightly less than 20 ppg. So it wasn't entirely about Dan Dakich, although he did hold Jordan considerably below his scoring average.

As for Dean Smith, I agree that the joke isn't entirely fair to him, although it is what it is. Of course, in the pre-shot clock days, Smith was well known for employing the four corners offense with the lead, in an effort to bleed the game clock and prevent the opponent from mounting a comeback. That held every player's scoring average down.


Muffet is one out of 7 final 4's *
by nd67  (2017-04-04 21:09:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Identical to Tom Izzo. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2017-04-04 21:18:50)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


But Izzo isn't fighting a dynasty. *
by Giggity_Giggity  (2017-04-04 23:08:52)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


What Izzo has done getting to that many Final Fours at MSU
by crazymary  (2017-04-05 16:30:58)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

is simply amazing as they rarely have top 5ish talent. That job isn't even a top-three job in its own conference. They aren't in that good of a local territory for premium HS talent. Whatever talent there is year-in-and-year-out has to be battled for with another in-state, high-major in their own conference with serious resources.

Few coaches in their right mind would pick MSU as a basketball job before Indiana, Maryland, OSU and Michigan. That's just in their conference. Nationally you can add probably at least another roughly 13-15 programs.

Historically, MSU has won about 60% of their games and 56% in conference. Obviously, just two Final Fours pre-Izzo which includes the Magic '79 title.

Heathcote won about 60% of his MSU games and 53% of his Big Ten games.

Izzo has won 72% of his games and 69% of his Big Ten games.


How many of Izzo's Final 4 teams had top 4 talent? *
by Tex Francisco  (2017-04-05 12:06:52)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


No, Izzo is fighting much more parity *
by nd67  (2017-04-05 10:34:51)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I completely agree. *
by G.K.Chesterton  (2017-04-05 00:12:31)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Similar in the * nature of their championships...
by IrishGeek  (2017-04-04 18:51:20)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Did Dean Smith's 2 championships involve him benefitting from the two biggest brain cramps in NCAA Tournament history? Shouldn't UNC invite Freddie Brown and Chris Weber back when they honor those championship teams at the Dean Dome?

Bobby Bowden, we don't need to say anything about 1993. As for 1999, hard to argue they weren't the best team, although if he had any principles and sat Peter Warrick after the Dillard's incident who knows? VT might have been able to edge them.


Warwick was undoubtedly the difference in that game. *
by Giggity_Giggity  (2017-04-04 19:37:52)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I thought you were going say "ran cleaner program than
by athlete37  (2017-04-04 18:22:00)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

successor." Which is a low bar for Bowden


Bill Guthridge?
by tf86  (2017-04-05 12:36:40)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

My memory is a little hazy, but I don't think UNC's major problems occurred until much later.