not Great but better coach than many fans feel but is his only worst enemy at times not willing to make changes with staff when needed . Jeff Quinn great person everybody loves him but not able o coach offensive line at ND

to find people that think he's great. I personally (unfortunately) know several. There are plenty of podcasters that praise him.
In fact, the dipshit that runs one-foot-down is always saying how BK deserves a statue NOW.

Calm down

I’m not sure why it’s so hard to look at Kelly as a good coach. Not good enough to take ND to the level of Bama, Clemson, or OSU, but also not as bad as the previous 3 coaches here and certainly not just equal to dozens of other coaches. If he retires tomorrow he would leave the program in a pretty good spot. Maybe he is the Buck Showalter of football coaches.

I have no problem moving on from Kelly because for me NDs number 1 goal is to win the championship and if you can’t get it done, or at least proven to be close, in 12 years, you just aren’t good enough to do it. Nothing wrong with being a good coach. We just need better. However, I do not have confidence JS would identify a successor who would take us to that level and frankly, outside of the handful of guys who probably would be tough pulls, I have no idea who that obvious choice would be. Maybe Fickell, maybe the BC or Baylor coach after another year or 2. But, my former dream pick, Urban is completely out now, I don’t see Dabo, Smart or Day leaving. Saban might have been an option years ago but not anymore. So who else are can’t miss guys?

The favorite coaches to replace Kelly before this season here were Mullen and Campbell. Mullen might get fired from Florida and Campbell is the coach of a .500 team in the weak Big 12.





That doesn’t mean we just sit here with Kelly and be content. But I never understand this confirmation bias people can’t shake because they just want to prove that Kelly is not at the level of Saban or Dabo. It’s like saying Phillip Rivers is not a good quarterback because he is not at the level of Brady or Manning. It can be two things. He can be a very good coach, just not good enough. Plenty of coaches in sports fit this label. It should not be enough for ND, but we also should not be chicken little shouting about every negative decision he makes and making dumb comments that any other coach would do that same here. You keep crying about Kelly as just an average coach no one is going to listen to you.

Is that he seems like he's kind of a bad dude. Based on people who know him, he's a pretty dishonest, petulant, arrogant dude. He is the only person who has ever in my life made me like Notre Dame football less.

He is in a position of trust and whether he likes it or not (and clearly he doesn't) he is a very public representative of the University, its ethos, and its legacy. His failures there are a pretty big deal IMO.

Winning a championship is hard, but we haven't really come close. Yes, he's recruited well, and yes, he's better than the prior three guys. But as has been mentioned, it is hard to parse how much of that is Notre Dame and how much of that is Brian Kelly. There have been some amazing players come through the program the past decade plus; he should get some credit for that. But I don't think that's enough.

Also -- and maybe I'm deluding myself -- I think I'd settle for a coach who might lose a head scratcher here and there to a shitty team but who we could have confidence in playing with and beating elite teams even once in a while. I mean I'm glad we aren't losing to Tulsa anymore, but that really isn't enough on its own accord.

You have lost your ever loving Kellyloving mind.

It’s like someone complaining about his politician but he never votes


And I know you have good reading comprehension, you would note I said he should leave because he isn’t good enough. Not sure how that equals a love for Kelly

prior three HCs.

Without them, BK wouldn't have lasted 12 years without a major bowl victory or national championship.

I do not like Kelly. But I agree that he's a decent coach. Not a great coach (Swinney) and certainly not an elite coach (Saban, Meyer).

Someone on this board a few days ago pointed out the dumpster fires going on at Texas, Florida, USC, and a few other programs and made a good point: Notre Dame has weathered the last few years fairly well, while other formerly elite programs have foundered. Since 2016, Kelly has had Notre Dame winning consistently and recruiting near the top 10.

Now, we here know that the losses during that run have been utterly brutal and an average class ranking of 13 over the last 6 years* (assuming we end up around 7 next signing day) is not nearly good enough for Notre Dame. But Kelly has brought a consistency to the program that we haven't seen since the Holtz years. If nothing else, Kelly is a good enough coach to have stabilized what was a sinking ship, admittedly with a little help from Jack's shitty schedules. He will leave the program in far better shape than he received it.

That's about the best you can say about his tenure.


*247sports rankings: 2017: 10, 2018: 10, 2019: 15, 2020: 18, 2021: 9, 2022: ~7

just good enough for the good-enough crowd.

Bob Davie went to a BCS bowl at ND. He had multiple top-10 recruiting classes at ND. He went 35-64 after ND.

Ty Willingham won a National Coach of the Year award at ND. He signed a top-7 recruiting class at ND. He went 55-73 at his non-ND stops.

Charlie Weis went to a BCS bowl at ND. He signed the #1 recruiting class in the country while at ND. He went 6-22 after ND.

ND makes coaches; it's not the other way around.

And you don't know me well enough to know what I spend my time "crying" about.

I’m just going by your comment. Heck, name 10, not named Saban, Smart, Dabo or Day.

Most of the ones you will pick will have lost to some shitty teams. All the others you pick will have had some bad years or only have coached for a few seasons. Either way most will have some obvious flaws. Kelly’s record against non ranked teams is not that impressive, especially because it probably happened over 2 seasons, but it shows he is not a shitty coach. His record in the playoffs and championship also shows he is not a great coach too. So that’s the unfortunate middle ground.

And ND does not always make the coach. We don’t have a consistent guaranteed pipeline of recruits like a Texas or Georgia would. It does take some work. It helps being at ND, but you took the best of those 3 guys. They all had really shitty seasons too. You left that part out. If you recruit a little, like Kelly, you get top 20 classes. If you really focus and work hard you get top 5 classes. Weis at least knew that part, Kelly still hasn’t really figured that part out. Another reason he is just a good, not great coach. But even with a lot of on paper talent Weis sucked his last few years. We know how really shitty an ND coach can get with Ty. Kelly has had a few really shitty seasons too. That’s why it’s not just about ND, those shitty seasons wouldn’t be so prevalent if Nd always made the coach.


Relax on the know me well enough non sequitur. I was talking in general. I have no idea of your posting history about Kelly, nor do I care.

I'll leave off Saban, Smart, Dabo and Day.

Kyle Whittingham
Dan Mullen
James Franklin
Jim Harbaugh
David Shaw
Chris Petersen
Bob Stoops
Mario Christobal
Kirk Ferentz
PJ Fleck
Mike Gundy
Mark Stoops
Mack Brown
Jimbo Fisher
Lane Kiffin
Tom Herman
Matt Campbell
Jeff Brohm
Paul Chryst
Luke Fickell
Pat Fitzgerald
Lincoln Riley
Mike Leach
Dave Doeren

I just named 24 coaches I'd be equally confident in when it comes to their ability to run a competent program at ND.

Could any of them build a legit national championship contender? Of course. Could I predict which ones? Hell no.

But, after 12 years, we know for certain that Brian Kelly has maxed out.

It's time for someone new.

His best teams still by and large get the crap beat out of them by elite teams. Although assistant coaching changes and hiring philosophies that were forced on him have, indeed, elevated his results above what had been the norm before this. That is improvement. But that gets us to going from being a ranked team every other year to consistently being a top 15 team. I acknowledge the improvement. But that standard still includes getting embarrassed by top programs, what, 2/3-3/4 of the time we play them?

Why is there reason to think we'll move up from that actually contend? I supposed you could have confidence in improved recruiting from Freeman. We may end up elevating the talent level on defense. We won't really know if he will be enough to improve that for probably another 1-2 years. This class isn't that much different from prior classes. The 2023 class has a promising start. We'll see how that goes.

On defense, when Freeman leaves, will Kelly still go outside his comfort zone to hire top coaching talent? That's still a serious question mark.

On offense, Kelly has still not shown the ability to develop quarterbacks. And we're putting our eggs in the basket of a guy next year who needs serious developmental help, though a lot of people like his raw athleticism.

I think the burden is on the party to explain why this isn't a ceiling. Calling that position a "very dumb statement" just reeks of ignorance. Even someone optimistic that growth could continue would be blind not to recognize reasons for skepticism.

as Kelly had in his first 11 years at ND.

Franklin, in 10 years, has 6 top 25 finishes, including 2 at Vandy.
Kelly, in 11 years, has 7 top 25 finishes.

I think it's reasonable to compare the 2 coaches.

It looks more like noise than a trend right now.

or maybe he's a great QB away. I think Penn State is a tougher job than it was 25 years ago due to recruiting shifts, and the fact OSU is at such a high level.

He may also be a 5-year guy, come in, fix it up/prop it up and then move on.

Looking back, what he did at Vanderbilt is pretty amazing considering what they were doing before him and what's happened since. I don't know how Clark Lea ever does better than 2-6 in the SEC.

Kyle Whittingham - agree love Whittingham
Dan Mullen - he might get fired after this year. He just lost to Missouri tonight and has Fl worse SEC record since 79.
James Franklin - all image, no substance. Lost to unranked Illinois this yr, lost to bad Nebraska team last yr
Jim Harbaugh - is that a joke? He is having a good year, but come on. He would have been fired by now if he didn’t have his reputation from SF and Stanford, . They didn’t win one game at home last year. He can’t win a big game.,. I mean ever.
David Shaw - please. He should have been fired by now.
Chris Petersen - are we picking coaches who aren’t coaching anymore? Why not add Holtz and Urban too
Bob Stoops - see above
Mario Christobal - agree
Kirk Ferentz - probably agree, but I don’t think he would recruit well at ND and he seems to be a coach who is content at 8-3 or 7-4 every year. That shouldn’t work at ND.
PJ Fleck - the hot coach du jour? He has to prove it on the big stage and he really has only had 1 good season
Mike Gundy - stop, besides he would never be at ND, his offensive style would kill Across. It makes Kelly look like a run first offense
Mark Stoops - good coach, maybe, hard to say as he has never been at a legit football program, but has done well with a shitty program in Kentucky. Obviously has some bad losses, but I admit he never had the talent of ND.
Mack Brown - stop. Great recruiter, horrible coach, Kelly has beaten him twice.
Jimbo Fisher - see above, but I would say yes, however, would never be at ND
Lane Kiffin - maybe now, certainly not before this year though. Was a train wreck at USC.
Tom Herman - the guy who couldn’t make it at Texas? Surely you jest
Matt Campbell - coming into this year, maybe. He is a .500 coach in the weak Big 12. I can’t say yes if that’s what he is now.
Jeff Brohm - he doesn’t even have a winning record at Purdue
Paul Chryst - seems to be going the wrong way at Wisconsin. Maybe same as Kelly, but no upgrade
Luke Fickell - yes, but still has to prove it at a real program
Pat Fitzgerald - is that a joke?
Lincoln Riley - sure, ok
Mike Leach maybe. Would kill Across worse than Gundy
Dave Doeren -he is an ok coach, lost 6 games in a row 2 years ago though. Strong coaches just don’t do that.

Overall I would say you have like 6 coaches who are most likely yeses and 3 or 4 more who are maybes. Some of those guys would never be picked at ND however for various reasons and I’m not going to include guys who have shown no interest in coaching again. I would honestly say maybe 4 or 5 of them would be clear upgrades over Kelly who could actually be at ND. (I know that wasn’t exactly the statement, but I think it matters to the overall point of replacing Kelly)I think Whittingham and Riley would be very difficult to get over to ND. Fickell is a clear top choice if Kelly left tomorrow. But that is for today. If the question was asked last year it probably would have been Mullen or Campbell.

But I respect you for making the list. Most would get called out and run into a hole.

I said dozens of coaches could produce results similar to the ones BK has produced over the last 12 years. I stand by that assertion.

Brian Kelly ain't getting it done, man. Every year we stick with him is a wasted year. It's time to try something new, even if it entails some risk.

Man, ND fans seem like the biggest pansies on earth with respect to taking on risk with a head coach. I'd be willing to bet they don't operate the same way when it comes to their finances.

Because I completely agree he isn’t getting it done. Him not getting it done does not mean he is a bad coach, just not to the level ND needs.



And you don't know me well enough to know how I spend my finances :)

You claim BK is a "good" coach. I don't believe there's enough evidence to back that up. I mean, the doofus went 4-8 in 2016.

I think at least 20 other dudes could have generated similar results over the past 12 years. Are they all "good"? Who knows.

You realize BK can't get it done. Yet you also play the "who else could we get?!?" game. Can't have it both ways, man.

It's time to stop wasting our lives with BK...

If a Kelly retires tomorrow and we take one of 75% of your list who is not equal to Kelly IMO, we will go back to Bob Davie era level shit. I lived through that, it was beyond depressing. My point is if we are going to move on, which I’m perfectly comfortable with, , it has to be for a guaranteed better coach, which, in my opinion, is only set at 4 or 5 guys. Then you have to see if you can get one of those guys to come to ND and if their background is clean enough too. It’s not easy. Look at what USC has gone thru since Carroll. Look at Texas since Brown. Look at the Florida trio schools. These programs should always be top 10/15 area programs and none of them will finish the season ranked.

Ya pansy.

I lived through Davie, too. I'm not convinced it was that much worse than Kelly. It was a lot more fun than listening to Brian Kelly give an interview, that's for sure.

There are no guarantees in life. It's time for something new.

Buddy I have one of the most intense, stressful jobs you will ever know. You would probably wet your pants if you had to do my job for a day. So, no, not a pansy in general, nor with my money.

If you lived thru Davie you should appreciate how much better it is now. Maybe you have recency bias and can’t wrap your head around how bad it really was. Again, for the 5th time in this thread, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t move on, but the fact you don’t think now is better than Jarious Jackson running around in the end zone to take a safety, and subsequently getting injured, that kind of tells me all I need to know about where your head is at. It was throw the ball in a hurricane level stupid, without the undefeated regular seasons to at least take the stink off a little bit. (The fact I’m comparing Bob Davie time management to Kelly’s hubris is pretty sad. ND really needs to move on)

Kelly’s greatest achievement is that he “should” make it easier for ND to grab a top notch coach. As I said in the first post, he hopefully is the Buck Showalter of college football. Never good enough to win it on his own, but leaves a good foundation so the next guy can come it and get over that final hill.

Look for the bright side in life once in a while

I think you miss his point.

Maybe you are too busy thinking about Sean Payton on the ND sidelines to have noticed that comment

Maybe you do get his point about inherent risk, but your statement is that ND should only hire a "clear upgrade" to Brian Kelly.

be able to figure it out, among another 12-15 minimum.

Yeah sure there are a dozen or more coaches better then Kelly overall, but Payton, Mcvay and McDermott are never coming to ND, unless they start to suck in the NFL and then we wouldn’t want them. Try to stay on planet earth if you are going to talk honestly about who could be the next HC at ND. I mean shit, why not get Belichick to coach at ND with Arch Manning coming next year. We can convince Payton to be OC and Vrabel to be DC. Vrabel has good connections in Ohio you know.

Do you see how it minimizes your opinion when you make a comment like Super bowl champ Sean Payton could come to ND and “figure it out”. Or the two hottest young coaches in the NFL who are super bowl contenders for the next few years almost guaranteed?

that could get similar or better results.

I hope our current or future Athletic Director isn't a pussy when reaching for the stars for the next guy.

He is.

It would be sad if he didn’t go hard after all the big names out there. ND deserves that. But, I’m guessing he won’t and will just go after the hot up and coming guy who has never coached at a major program or maybe even in house if it’s a few years down the road.

Don’t be shocked if an assistant is picked. I can see JS doing that too. Then you might really wish we still had a Kelly, ha.

if I had to guess what Jack's list looks like today, it would be in no particular order:

Jeff Hafley
Dave Clawson
Marcus Freeman
Clark Lea
Matt Campbell
Luke Fickell

You will have to add Rees to that list too. That probably should scare some people.

I’m pretty sure Fickell will be gone by then. Hafley has potential but he needs to prove it for a few more years. I like what I see in Freeman so far. As much as I think it was stupid to anoint him HC in waiting, I think it’s equally stupid to have called him a bust after only a few games. He is looking better and better. Hopefully he continues to improve as a coach and the recruiting keeps going too. And you have to worry about him sticking around to 2024 too.

Clawson is interesting, he really has only had this season though at Wake. Let’s see what he does next year. I doubt many would be happy if he was picked as the new HC if Kelly left tomorrow.

Like Fitzgerald at NU, Cutcliffe at Duke, Vandy coaches, et al. Really difficult places to win. Stanford similar but not quite as difficult.

Wake's success this year appears to be based on the fact they have a 4-year starting QB (like Pitt with Pickett), so I'm guessing Wake will regress back to the 25-38 ACC record type of team and maybe they "hit" every 3-4 years.

2021 Wake Forest IMO is like the Syracuse team in 2018 that ND beat, with Eric Dungy at QB. Great veteran QB play (by their standard) lifts them 3-5 wins above what they normally would do.

Elko and Lea coaches with/for him. Maybe he has the ability to identify assistant coaches. Maybe it was luck. Elko will probably be a head coach soon. Not too shabby for former Wake Forest assistants.

As DBCooper states below, I'd like to see multiple years of strong ACC W-L records (not feasting on horseshit out of conference games) before I even think of diving into his file and assess his leadership skills, staff building, fit, recruiting acumen, self awareness, work ethic, resilience, etc etc

I would just want to see consistent 9/10 win seasons at those type of places. And with different QBs.

I only read your first sentence, admittedly. (You edited to make it your 3rd paragraph).

My point is the favorite, next great head coach, is very difficult to pick. Many of them have a few good seasons, and then fizzle. Hardly any actually prove to be legit for the long haul.

It’s not easy to make that distinction. And I don’t trust JS to do so.