you describe effectively (other than Saban or Dabo)?

Yeah, I think that we were pretty effective.

When we face a team with the top talent like Clemson and Alabama, they can take away what we do UNLESS we have a qb who will make the deep throws, especially the ones down the seams.

Book was very reluctant to make those throws.
He might not have quite the arm to get it there,
and won’t throw into tight windows. At the senior
bowl practices, the coaches were very frustrated
that Book wouldn’t make throws to WRs they considered
open.

and this is overly simplistic, but sometimes the basic stuff is what stops an offense.

If a defense knows that we like to rely a lot on specific check downs or slants vs specific coverages, they can bait us into that throw by showing us a specific coverage and then shifting post snap (robber, where the SS comes back to the box at the snap from a cover 2 shell) or by running a free man underneath (hole, where the defense is playing a 1 free safety look and man under, and the qb checks to a quick slant but the MLB is also free and he slides in to take away that pass). Now, understand that not just any defense has the horses to run that stuff effectively, because truthfully there are massive holes in those defenses and you need elite athletes (especially at corner) to make up for some of the stuff you're giving up.

With that said, if the defense can effectively do that, what you'll see is a qb double clutching at times when his read is jumped. You need to make the defense pay for stuff like that by winning the one on one matchups on the outside and effectively throwing the seams, and even changing your routes vs certain coverage looks (like cover 1). You need guys on the outside that can win and you need a qb that can make the throw. Truthfully, the other way to shut that stuff down is by effectively running the ball and then running some play action with deep shots.

If a defense isn't scared of your deep shots, they can squat on the short stuff and shut down the checks. Now, when we play someone middle of the pack like oh, I don't know, let's just say North Carolina, they don't really have the horses and even if they try and run that stuff a good, mobile qb can break contain and make something from nothing. Teams with elite outside talent at cb and DE will be much harder to dink and dunk against, basically.

Ohio State runs the offense I would like us to run

we're not talking preference, we're talking about ability to run a given scheme against elite defenses. For the purposes of this discussion, I do not take a stance on a particular scheme.

Kizer with Fuller, Chris Brown, Alize Mack and Robinson/Carlisle/Hunter Jr
Prosise and Adams and Dexter Williams
OL comprised of three future first round picks (Stanley, Nelson, McGlinchey), a second round pick (Martin) and a three-year starter (Elmer)

I don’t have star ratings in front of me, but that lineup seems like it would be doable from a recruiting standpoint more often than not (though maybe not 4 high draft picks on OL).

though he was much more willing to make those types of throws.

Then gets drafted by the 2017 Browns. Not a very good career arc.

Just not one in the classical sense.

I think Rees did a good job playing to our strengths last year. I'm talking more on a philosophical level- we can and should absolutely be recruiting and scheming for the type of offense that Bama ran last year.

Warren Sharp(who has been hired for consulting work by multiple NFL teams) is a big proponent of this shift. His stuff is pretty nerdy but interesting.

You can’t honestly profess to know more about this than Nick Saban, right? In case you didn’t watch the video, I’ll transcribe the relevant part:

“I grew up with the idea that you play good defense, you run the ball, you control field position on special teams, and you’re gonna win. Whoever rushes the ball the most for the most yards is going to win the game.... you’re not gonna win anything, now, doing that.”

To be clear Saban has won two national championships and been to two others since he adopted this philosophy.

He said you have to outscore opponents. He is not a spread true believer and neither was Kiffin and neither was Sarkisian. Bother of the aforermentioned OCs run pretty conventional modern offenses with formidable running games. Both adapted to talent on hand. Mac Davis v his predecessors
Alabama has had exceptional running games throughout Saban's tenure.

though I would agree that not all of it is from gun, and there offense doesn't come close to resembling our offense.

We're precluded from obtaining such players.

In all seriousness, he had players like that prior to adjusting his scheme.

Under Kelly. Boykin and Claypool were playing at the same time and we’ve had an infinite loop of first day picks at TE. So, no, our issue hasn’t been we are devoid of players - in spite of not going after the top ones.

the issue has clearly been qb development. Book did as much as he could with his talents and is a fantastic leader, but he was limited and was somewhat exposed against top defenses (as would most qb's be). We've had some kids that had big arms and we've had some kids who were great leaders and try hard guys, and we've had some fast guys, but we've never developed that top echelon qb who could beat the truly elite defenses by putting the team on his back.

Now, that's why some have advocated a different type of system that doesn't rely so heavily on the elite guy. It's also why some have advocated (okay, me) not having an offense that relies so heavily on the qb in the running game; after Zaire got hurt in 2015 I picked up over 10 ignores in one week for criticizing the offensive system that called for qb iso and qb counter.

To have a shot at winning. Yes, that QB does exist. One of that mold every other year or so. So, If we could beat the 3 schools that get that QB, we would have a shot.

Or

We could change the offense to not require that QB - into one that needs a 1 in 500 QB where 10’s of them exist every year and odds are high we can land one every other year.

Or

We can wrongly think we can win with this offense without the 1 in 1 MM qb. The Brian Kelly theory.

Not more than one at a time at least. But frankly, no one may ever have.

Alabama has had 3 first round WR picks since 2011, Jones in 11, Amari Cooper in 15, and Ridley in 2018. Jones and Cooper are certainly as good as any recent Bama WR but I’m not sure Ridley would be considered as strong an NFL prospect. Ridley was the main guy when Jeudy, Ruggs and Smith were freshmen but they didn’t play much. The last 3 years for Bama WRs has been insane in the talent level. Hell, the least effective of the 4 WRs might end up being the best pro (Waddle). All 4 top 20 picks (most likely after Smith and Waddle drafted next month). Not sure this type of talent at one skill position has been equaled in a very long time outside of maybe LSU WRs in 19. It’s early 2000s Miami RBs type talent level.

This is not an apology for Kelly in any way, more proof of the intelligence of Saban. You have 4 super talented WRs, change your offense a bit to utilize them more and exploit the talent differential. But 90% of NFL teams do not have the overall talent at WRs as Bama did with Jeudy, Smith, Ruggs, and Waddle. It’s quite remarkable.

Saban said he changed his offensive philosophy after Kiffin became OC. Kiffin was on staff from 2014 to 2016.

It appears that Saban probably changed (increased?) his recruiting focus to ensure that he had top WRs on his roster to run his new offense.

The results are having four likely first round picks in 2020 and 2021.

And on a baseball field all day tomorrow, but I don't want you to think that I am ignoring you. No time for long answer, but basically I would say he's always had a lot of talent around him, he uses it better than most coaches and his defensive schemes are outstanding.

I consider the offenses Bama has run to be pretty varied. It incorporates all sorts of formations amd strategies. It does not resemble ours or any garden variety GAS

“ Whoever rushes the ball the most for the most yards is going to win the game.... you’re not gonna win anything, now, doing that.”

He says that he changed his offensive philosophy to be more pass heavy around 2016 because he recognized that was the best way to win in college football now. Sure, I will say I shouldn’t have said he favors spread offenses, but he absolutely favors an offense that is pass-first now. Look at Alabama’s pass/run breakdown the last five years(when it counts, not the fourth quarter when they’re up 42-10 and just running out the clock). They’re a pass happy team now, and it’s the right move for ND as well.

among ND fans. “I grew up with the idea that you play good defense, you run the ball, you control field position on special teams, and you’re gonna win. Whoever rushes the ball the most for the most yards is going to win the game.... you’re not gonna win anything, now, doing that.”

He is saying “that idea that a lot of ND fans have of how to achieve success, that worked for a long time in college football, that does not work anymore.”

Or in other words, he said “it’s not 1988 anymore”.

It’s my fault for bringing in the terminology of formations or “pass heavy”. My main point was that the often-prevailing-wisdom that 1988 ND or 2012 Alabama is the goal for the philosophy of a championship level Notre Dame team in 2021, is not right.

And just hired an NFL head coach who had serves as an NFL OC. Now all of these guys cherry pick modern trends in offenses. All came from backgrounds steeps in sophisticated and effective passing gsmes. None were adherents to or devotees of the college spread offense.

They're not GAS like Kelly's, but they are incontrovertibly pass first, and most important effective, offensive schemes.

not all, but that is the prevailing offense. Green Bay's best offenses have had very effective running games, especially in late season games. Their offense is the NFL offense I prefer to watch. Now, college QBs cannot be expected to do the things that Rodgers can do.

I disagree that USC offenses (at least their best ones, not the ones in their recent swoon of sucking ass) were pass first. They sure hurt us on the ground, and in the air.

Is in line with what I am asserting.

I think that he adjusted it to incorporate more RPO and a faster style.

RPO is not pass first, it is basically option football. And they hit you with the pass when you cheat up on the run.

Basically, same as it ever was.

Where he once used the pass to keep the defense honest, he now uses the run to keep the defense honest. The passing game is how he plans on scoring points now. Whether that’s a designed pass or the RPO becoming a pass, it’s clear that Alabama has geared its offense to be one that scores points by moving the ball through the air.

The actual scoring is pretty balanced. Yardage heavily favors passing. There still needs to be a stout running game to punch the ball in once on the opponent’s side of the field even if passing gets you into position.

1. The spread tends to balance off the defenders versus offensive players from 11 defenders vs 10 + the QB. Most defenses use 1 or 2 safeties to support cornerbacks and avoid 1 on 1 coverage or go to a zone scheme. It's the classic choose what you want to try and stop, and I'll exploit it.

2. The defense often chooses to use lighter and faster players to cover the wide-open field, and unless you're stocked with JOKs, you become vulnerable to being pushed around.

3. Alabama has had a succession of big and somewhat fast backs that take advantage of defenses against the spread. Saban can kill other teams by having superior passing games (mainly the WRs) and running games. I think it's more than what keeps the defenses honest, but what the defense allows him.

4. As you pointed out in your original post, a good offense requires players and schemes to stretch the defense and to gain chuncks on the ground.

4.

On touchdown drives in the playoffs, Alabama passed 68% of the time.

If I did the math on every game the last five years, I’m guessing that on TD drives when the game wasn’t a blowout, it would be roughly the same. When Alabama wants to score now, they pass the ball.