It has been provided here before. I won't claim to know how it is formulated, but it has ND at number 8, see link. I presume it accounts for incoming recruit rankings, retention, and net results of transfers.

In the case of ND, I do find it interesting that the current talent ranking (#8) is higher than any individual class ranking ND has had until this year, and assume the 2021 class is not reflected in this index.

https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

1. Our recruiting sucks relative to other Top 5 schools.
2. Our coaching must be superior to get to the playoffs with such crappy talent.

I know #2 hurts to admit but it's not easy to take the #15 average recruiting class over the last four years and average only two losses per year.

Imagine being Georgia and having the top recruiting class year after year only to lose an average of three games every year.

ND has a talent advantage over almost every single opponent. The ones ND doesn’t have a talent advantage over, they lose to. Results in annual 10-2 schedules and much disappointment when the lights are brightest.

Good at identifying 3 or low 4 stars who should be rated much higher and possibly their development. Kyle Hamilton was a weak 3 star rated in the 600s when he committed and north of 1000 when offered. JOK was a 3 star. Julian Okwara was a low 4 star and I believe a 3 star when offered. Ade Ogundeji was a 3 star. Will Fuller was a low 4 star and 46th WR. C Lewis, who looks like he could be a talented CB, was a 3 star.

Outside of OL and TE, coupled with the occasional WR or DL, Kelly does not produce a lot of early round (first 3 rounds) NFL prospects who were highly regarded (5 or strong 4 star) out of high school. It seems he is weak in gaining the amount of 5 and 4 stars you would expect him to get with all of these 10 win seasons but makes up for it a little bit with a good eye for middle ground talent.

In a perfect world he would keep finding those diamonds in the rough while also finding players who are highly regarded by the big programs (outside of OL and TE).

Even now the best young prospect we have, that everyone identified early, is a TE, and arguably 2 of the top 3 players (Fisher and Rocco, with Kollie the LB)coming in for 2021 are OL (Buchner did not play this fall and did not look good in recent QB camps, so we will see with him).

I will add 2021 at least has some other strong talent at WR and DT, but 2021 should be the floor for a strong ND program (it is frustrating because without Covid ND probably would have had a top 5 class, but everyone dealt with it, so you can’t use that too much as an excuse),

It's a well known fact that upperclassmen are "better" than underclassmen. Case and point: BYU with all their 26 year old players.

So while ND may not get the top top recruits, we get "good" recruits that stay all 4-5 years. For a program, that's almost better than getting "great" recruits that leave after 2 or 3. For example, Ian Book is no Trevor Lawrence. He is a relatively short 3 star QB, not a 6-5 athletic freak. But he has developed into a strong college QB. Same could be said about our our receiving corps - for example, Avery Davis is jacked now compared with how he came in 4/5 years ago.

In some ways, recruiting in the 8-10 range but keeping guys all 4-5 years is better. Now, technically we're not there yet (we're in the 10-15 range), but the point is still the same.

Where Villanova with Top 50 players can compete with a bunch of raw lottery picks from Kentucky who will be there a year.

Alabama football keeps plenty of players. In football it’s a nice Boston College type strategy to make a bowl game every year. There’s no hiding from it. You need the best players.

earlier. There should be 5 to 6 players on the team that are 5 stars, similar to Mayer, also more very high level 4-Star players similar to Kyle Hamilton. Their talent allows them to contribute for 3 years at a very high level and some will stay for 4 years. These players are "Man-Childs."

Clemson has 2 Freshman starting on the DL...2 exceptional playmaking DL. Both are 5-Stars and they will contribute for at least 3 years:
- Bryan Bresee: DT #1 Overall Recruit - All ACC DT
- Myles Murphy: SDE #7 Overall Recruit

In the 2021 Class Clemson is adding 3 Strong 4-Star DL that are ranked overall recruits at # 93, 101 and 179.

ND has a great DT coming in next year in 4-Star Gabriel Rubio who is the #116 overall recruit. He will probably be the best overall DT we have had in 5 years, and should see a good amount of playing time next year. In the last 4 years, ND has not recruited elite DL as of late (and Interior DL is thin in depth) and this class is lacking in a strong edge rusher. When you get a strong front 4 you do not have to blitz, but when you do blitz it can be overwhelming...someone will get through unless you get the ball out quickly, which is a key to a great defense.

Multiple Elite players on either side of the line, is almost like having an extra player on the field - they require double teams or someone is going to blow up a one-on-one assignment.

Yes, some veteran players develop over time, but I would rather have more elite players mixed in with mostly 4-star and some 3-Star recruits that stay for 4 to 5 years.

Trevor Lawrence was better his freshman year than Ian is now (no offense to the elder Mr. Book). Amari Rodgers was better at 18 than Avery is at 21.

Give me a two-deep of five-star sophomores and juniors and reload that each year ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. (Oh wait, that's 'Bama!)

By your logic, BYU would then be competing at Alabama's level . It just ain't so.

Recruiting in the 8-10 range is NEVER better than recruiting in the 1-5 range IF (and it's a big IF) you can recruit in that 1-5 range consistently. As we've seen, doing it one year in a row doesn't help so much.

Did I say that BYU would compete at Alabama's level? Unless I had a stroke and can't read or remember what I wrote, I don't think I did.

Should ND recruit better? Yes.

But a #7 recruited class who stays and develops vs a #4 recruited class who has 5 players leave early is an easy decision. Would I rather have a #4 class vs a #20 class? Of course. But, this isn't quite as black and white as some posters here seem to be making it.

The fact is, we have made the playoffs this year, with recruiting that on the face of it, should not equal a top 4 result. I would argue that this is not the result of "exceptional coaching", but is more the result of a boatload of veteran players.

The point is, keeping players for 4-5 years pays dividends.

I'll take elite talent that results in early flight to the NFL. Other than OL, I don't want guys that have to stay for 5 years to play in the NFL.

I get the need for certain underdog programs (like BYU, who sucks) to have to do the 4.5 year thing, but that's not how championship programs operate.

Obviously strength and conditioning are key, as is chemistry, but optimally wouldn't you want a mix of sophomores, juniors, seniors, and 5th years every year so you have a certain level of experience and leadership every year? If you are playing all fifth-years, that means next year you start all over trying to mix and match inexperienced players.

to prevent inconsistent performance - and leadership gaps, as you rightly point out.

The programs that catch lightning-in-a-bottle will hit it big when an incredible core group of leaders/performers all align in a given season, but they can't sustain it over multiple years.

I’ll imagine being Georgia...they beat us twice

and assembled a bunch of data and used it to bash Kelly and ND recruiting.

Alternate view....While ND is around top 10-14 in recruiting, they've made the playoffs twice. They seem to be getting quite a bit out of the players they land. Are they at the Alabama, Ohio State level? No, very few are. ND is more like Oklahoma in terms of talent. Playoff results would indicate that as well.

Can recruiting get better? Probably.

and then you make your observations. You can make your own, and I made mine with supporting data. It is obvious that ND’s recruiting is underperforming.

I think that Coach Kelly is finally getting it when he said ND needs to attain Top 5 recruiting. Unfortunately it should not have taken him 10+ years to realize that. This year hurt due to the pandemic, but the loss of recruiting momentum after 3 years was a huge mistake, that he has to own. As a national recruiting school, BK did not establish ND recruiting to help overcome most of issues of the pandemic

ND is not that close to Oklahoma in recruiting, but closer to them than the Top 5 teams. In 2021 ND is #8 with 27 recruits and Oklahoma is #9 with 16 recruits (11 fewer recruits). Which class is better in quality and has room for more.recruits in 2021 and for a lot more quality recruits in 2022.

Personally, I think that he is doing the right thing by having his coordinators do the primary game planning, he got good results from his last 2 choices and I hope he gets the right DC.

we do better than expected based solely on our recruiting results.

What in your view is the consistently attainable ceiling for BK and ND recruiting. What do BK and ND need to do to attain that?

...recruiting and then found facts to back it up. I did not cherry pick the facts but lined up almost all the data points, and my views were based on those data points.

Oklahoma’s recruiting is better than ND’s in getting more quality recruits 5 5-Stars vs. ND’s 2 and 64 4-Stars vs. ND’s 57. Also Oklahoma has a reputation of developing their QBs, which has a big impact in getting other higher level recruits when they recruit an elite QB.

Oklahoma’s results are much better than ND’s. Oklahoma has won the Big 12 Championship the last 6 years 2015 - 20. They have been in the last 3 CFP, and although lost in the 1st round, 2 of the 3 games were competitive and showed they belonged with the “Big Boys,” which cannot be said for ND:
- 2017: Georgia 54-48 (2OT)
- 2018: Alabama 45-34
- 2019: LSU 63-28

Oklahoma’s previous Coach Bob Stoop 1999 to 2016 went to a bowl game every one of his 18 years. He played in 13 Major Bowls and won 6 of them, including a NC in 2000 and in 2009 lost in the NC game to Florida 24-14 (the score was 14-7 going into the 4th quarter), they showed they belonged.

You asked how does ND improve? With ND’s tradition is first give a “damn.”
1. Need to really care about recruiting and have the coach and his staff completely dedicated to improve recruiting (past recruits said ND and specifically BK was not following up with interest and went elsewhere). If BK was not completely dedicated to recruiting, then how do you expect his staff to be dedicated to it?
2. Hold the coach and his staff accountable for their efforts and results. AD JW seems content, since BK’s results are a reflection of his performance - hence not a very challenging schedule - USC not playing well is not a scheduling issue.
3. Win your fair share of meaningful games - not done (Clemson was more of the exception Than the rule.- a great win, but far too few.
4 Do not get blown out by top teams (Clemson 2002 Part 2 was more the rule than the exception.
5. Don’t lose to easy teams (I.e. Tulsa (Recruiting ranked #100)
6. Don’t hide behind soft schedules and declare victory to goals, which applies even more to ND’s AD. Lower the expectations with weaker schedules and more games, and then declare winning 10 games is wonderful.

It is critical that ND makes a good showing against Alabama, in the upcoming Rose Bowl to be able try and reverse our standing in recruiting top players.

However, my biggest concern in you initial reply is that ND recruiting at #14 level seems close to appropriate, with your last comments of, “Can recruiting get better? Probably.” IMO that answer should be, “Definitely and substantially,”

There are approx. 17 other programs that are in ND's peer group; ND should never, ever drop below a #18 ranked class.

As others have pointed out, the gulf between the haves and the have-nots continues, and may be widening.

ND is on the right side of the gulf in terms of being in that tier of 18, but needs to push its way into the cartel at the very top.

Red flags abound when these programs drop below the top ~18 (like USC's disaster of a class last season), or consistently finish in the 12-18 range.