I blame Davie
by Jvan (2015-01-02 12:54:14)
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If Davie had promoted Urban Meyer to Offensive Coordinator in 1999 after Jim Colletto was dropped, Meyer would have stuck around at ND. He may even have been the default choice to replace Davie after the 2001 season, where the botched pursuit of Gruden and the George O'Leary resume debacle left ND in a pickle. Instead, we ended up with Ty.

A frustrated Urban saw the writing on the wall with Davie and left after the 2000 season for his shot with Bowling Green.


Monk and there is no other answer. Davie was a symptom
by oldirishfan  (2015-01-03 12:18:28)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Monk populated the Administration with his types and they still have influence


Yes. Totally agree. If ND ever negotiates
by Harry Oliver  (2015-01-03 11:35:06)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

With Meyer, Lou needs to be in the room.


Without the benefit of a crystal ball, it seems unlikely
by rockmcd  (2015-01-02 17:17:35)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that in December 2001 ND would have hired somebody with no college head coaching experience to replace another guy who came in with no college head coaching experience.

It's common for coaching searches to focus on guys whose resumes address the perceived shortcomings of the outgoing coach. That's why the two guys they hired to replace Davie were head coaches in the ACC and the Pac-10.

Hypothetically, if Meyer was their OC in 2001, I just find it unlikely that they would have said "Yeah, let's promote our own coordinator again. Because that worked out so well last time!" When someone like Ara says that he needed all his years of experience to prepare him for the ND job, I take that seriously. Meyer wasn't ready to be a head coach at ND in 2001, he needed that experience at Bowling Green and Utah.


Davie & Weis had never been head coaches when ND hired them *
by Jvan  (2015-01-02 20:33:16)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Which is exactly why their successors had 7+ years of
by rockmcd  (2015-01-02 21:17:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

head coaching experience.

Replacing Holtz: He was great. Stay the course and hire a member of his staff.

Replacing Davie: He lacked HC experience. Hire a guy with 7 years HC experience in a major conference.

Replacing Ty: He didn't "get" ND and got outcoached. Hire an ND alum that is an X's & O's guru.

Replacing Weis: Same as Davie. Hire a guy with 20 years HC experience.

Replacing Kelly: He lacked major program experience and has had trouble retaining blue chip recruits. When the day comes, I'm sure they'll get somebody who had been an assistant at an elite program and a head coach at a P5 program. And they'll get a guy with a defensive background if BVG can't turn things around.

You see, it's always reactionary.


My point stands
by Jvan  (2015-01-02 22:21:21)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

After failing to land Gruden and O'Leary in 2001, the Administration and the AD were flummoxed. If Meyer had been a reasonably successful OC to that point, his qualifications for the job might well have been evident if not obvious. Certainly he did not lack self-confidence but he would have come cheaper than Willingham.

In December 2001, Meyer would have been at ND for six years and OC for three. As it turned out, Davie alienated him and he took a different path. Meyer was destined to be a head coach sooner or later in that time frame.


I'm not going to defend Davie.
by Porpoiseboy  (2015-01-02 15:09:29)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But I'd be curious how successful you'd be if even the hotdog machines...


I blame the folks who hired Davie instead of Alvarez *
by Irishlawyer  (2015-01-02 15:05:39)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


You mean - you blame the guy named Holtz.
by cdb9396  (2015-01-02 16:45:44)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Afterall, Holtzwas the guy that hired him - after beating Davie twice in 2 straight bowl games......

I never understood that move either.


Davie was recommended to Holtz by Joe Moore *
by oldirishfan  (2015-01-02 21:58:19)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Lou didn't hire him as head coach. Peter Principle, anyone?
by AraStopTheSnow  (2015-01-02 21:57:42)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Nor did Lou ask Davie to go all Et Tu, Brute on him a few years later.

I'd guess Lou was impressed by how those TaM defenses looked against him. I was too, at the time.

I'd also guess DC turned out to be Davie's ceiling.


Then again, Meyer as OC may have bought Davie a few
by 2ndstreeter  (2015-01-02 14:57:25)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

more years at ND and someone may have stolen Meyer away before Davie eventually got the boot. Then we may have never hired Ty, but actually gotten ( fill in the blank great head coach) to come to ND and win some NCs.

I like this game! I think things would definitely worked out better if Meyer stayed no matter what scenario followed, because it couldn't have gone much worse than it has.

Edit: I didn't see jt make the same point below about Davie not getting fired if Meyer was OC before posting. Mea Culpa.


The road begins with Wadsworth
by gadomer  (2015-01-02 13:46:30)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That guy proved (yes, that is sarcasm) he could do better than Lou.


Dirty Canadian S.O.B.
by milhouse  (2015-01-02 14:18:28)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That's all redundant, I suspect.


Davie committed no fewer than 3 mortal sins against ND
by ShermanOaksND  (2015-01-02 13:29:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

1. Stabbing Holtz in the back to set up his own hire as HC.

2. Not tabbing Meyer to be his OC after the inevitable firing of Coletto (who never should've been hired, obviously).

3. Advising Meyer against taking the ND job in December 2004.

I actually think 3 might've been more damaging than 2. Had Meyer been the OC, ND probably would've fared better in 1999-2001 than it did. But then Davie likely wouldn't have been fired in December. And by that time, I'm sure Meyer would've been poached by another school -- maybe BGSU in 2000, or maybe someone else that year or the next.

Especially in light of 2, it's disappointing that Meyer listened to Davie in 2004. Then again, Meyer saw first hand how dysfunctional ND's PTB were. And I suppose ND would've found a way to screw the pooch on hiring Meyer even without Davie's treachery.


4. He fired Joe Moore. *
by barrister  (2015-01-02 22:36:47)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Didn't he also suggest
by meatwhistle  (2015-01-02 16:49:19)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that the "cupboard was bare"?


Yes, and that we had a talent deficit vs. Michigan State
by ShermanOaksND  (2015-01-02 17:43:04)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

No, Boob, it was a coaching deficit, first against Nick Saban and then against Bobby Williams, for chrissakes.


I noticed Bobby W on BAMA sideline last night. *
by irishhawk49  (2015-01-02 19:24:37)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I'm tired of hearing about 1
by co4nd  (2015-01-02 13:55:05)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Yes maybe it shows a character flaw, but the real actors were the eunuchs in charge. People never want to admit its the god damn priests who are to blame. Leahy, Ara, and Holtz. Heaven forbid anyone steal their thunder.


True, but embrace the genius of "and"
by ShermanOaksND  (2015-01-02 14:34:45)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

In the past, ND often had people around to rein in the worst anti-competitive instincts of certain collars in power. But by 1996, the only one left to do that was Holtz himself, and the knife was firmly ensconced in his back by then.

I still think Father Jenkins wants ND to be a champion again. He did fire Willingham, after all. But I think he's put too much faith in his coaches and ADs, and/or he's been too patient with them.


Joe Moore should be on that list. *
by NDBass  (2015-01-02 13:54:23)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Absolutely -- bad omission on my part *
by ShermanOaksND  (2015-01-02 14:30:33)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Davie wouldn't have been fired in 2001 if Meyer was his OC *
by jt  (2015-01-02 13:17:29)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


that and i think it would have been highly unlikely
by cujaysfan  (2015-01-02 15:10:32)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

that ND would have elevated two assts in a row - particularly one from a HC that would have been fired.

i actually can't recall an instance where that has ever happened before.

plus - i think we've established that anyone without HC experience need not apply.


Which leads to another scary conclusion
by irishrock  (2015-01-02 15:39:27)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The issue with ND coaching searches since '97 hasn't just been who was chosen, it's been the pool of candidates that person was picked from.

I know Davie beat out Barnett...don't remember who the third candidate was. Willingham beat out...I've got nothing. CW beat out Clements and Greg Blache. I have no idea who was under consideration when ND chose Kelly.


There was a brief tip of the cap to Stoops
by gadomer  (2015-01-02 16:45:26)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

but nothing serious. ND, nor Stoops, reached out to each other. It was an intermediary from Stoops' hometown.

I tell you, IrishDemon's story about the prominent Big XII head coach telling him, "nobody wants that job" appears to have some present day merit.


Losers always find a way to fail *
by Jvan  (2015-01-02 13:25:26)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


As in, Urban wanted an upgrade over Utah, had ND in
by 84david  (2015-01-02 14:26:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

his sights, and we f'd it up. Saban was looking for an upgrade, had ND on his wish list,
and we didn't pursue. We just about had a deal with Gruden, then let Davis interfere.
We interviewed stoops, fell through.

It's kind of the story of our program for 20 years.


Urban's wife didn't want South Bend, as I recall...
by Brahms  (2015-01-02 15:11:11)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...less amenable to jorts.


Tough to see them going back-to-back coordinators
by OhioIrish21  (2015-01-02 13:07:28)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Especially when the successor would have the stink of the predecessor on him.

Also - installing Meyer as OC could have saved Davie's job for a few more years, at least until Meyer got his HC gig.


Holtz hired Urban before his last season
by Jvan  (2015-01-02 13:19:56)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I don't think Urban would be tainted by Davie - two very different people. I do agree that Davie may have been threatened by Meyer's dynamic personality though. After all, Davie knew what it was like to stab a boss in the back and he was very insecure to begin with.


Yes, back stabbers are always watching their own backs
by ShermanOaksND  (2015-01-02 13:36:17)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

It's the same reason a hit man never sits with his back to the window of a restaurant.


I think Davie may have viewed Meyer as a threat
by Hanratty5ND  (2015-01-02 12:59:25)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

You bring up a great point though.

Another what if?

Seems like there have been too many of those to count for ND over the last 20 years.


I agree *
by oldirishfan  (2015-01-02 14:13:56)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


And just for good measure Davie told Meyer...
by Irishdemon  (2015-01-02 12:58:41)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

… not to take the Notre Dame job in 2004.

What an A-Hole.


This is the part I don't understand
by El Kabong  (2015-01-02 13:39:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

He worked with Davie, he had to have known what a rubberhead Davie was.

And yet he solicited career advice from him not five years later.


Honestly, the only answer is...
by Irishdemon  (2015-01-02 13:45:37)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

… he doesn't think he's a rubberhead.


I assure you Meyer knows what a douche Davie is.
by papanovember  (2015-01-02 16:19:41)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The far more likely reality is that Meyer solicited Davie's advice as a courtesy and to maintain professional ties. He then decided not to come to ND entirely on his own.


Exactly *
by fbirish  (2015-01-03 00:31:59)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Good to know.
by Irishdemon  (2015-01-02 18:21:58)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I'm sure Bob reveled in telling him, "you can't win there" as if to excuse his own miserable performance.

Side note: Davie's co-workers at ESPN certainly didn't care for him either.

"Hey Bob, don't be afraid to pick up a check once in a while."


It turned out pretty good for Meyer. *
by rick  (2015-01-02 13:49:19)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


I bet Weis wishes he had gotten similar advice
by jt  (2015-01-02 13:18:32)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

his agent Bob Lamonte had him in line for the SF job which instead went to Mike Nolan.


This! *
by gmb66  (2015-01-02 13:11:59)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Plus he was nice enough to allow Urban to create
by ugoirish  (2015-01-02 12:58:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

this video demo of his play calling skills. It's funny that Haden didn't realize that Urban called the plays on this drive.


First guy to greet Lovecchio on the sidelines after the
by WTF68  (2015-01-02 14:53:29)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

touchdown was Steve Addazio.

It's a damn shame Urban went to Florida instead of ND.


I was there that day in the stands. I turned to the guy
by oldirishfan  (2015-01-02 14:18:16)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Next to me after the first couple of series and asked, "Who is calling the plays because it ain't Kevin Rogers or Bob Davie?" Years later I heard the story that Meyer in response to the collective whining from Davie and Rogers because of having to start a true freshman at QB he issued them a challenge for him to call the plays. It didn't last long but it was great while it lasted.


Similar formations & results from last night *
by Tiger Stadium  (2015-01-02 13:43:16)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


Such a waste of talent ...
by JC  (2015-01-02 13:35:48)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Givens, Hunter, Jones, Black, Faine ... NFLer's all ... Givens with the Super Bowl ring.


That's what always strikes me when I see that clip,
by ugoirish  (2015-01-02 15:35:19)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

other than the haunting images of a youthful Meyer and that beautiful sequence of plays. They show the names of the starting offensive 11 on the screen and it's like a body blow. All that talent plus Urban Meyer, Steve Addazio, Dan Mullen and Greg Mattison on the sideline. There never was a clearer lesson of the importance of a head coach.

And the jackasses ended up hiring the idiot on the other sideline.


Holloway and Williams with Super Bowl rings too
by Azars31  (2015-01-02 15:24:55)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I believe Jabari Holloway and Brock Williams earned Super Bowl rings with the Patriots (while being on the IR list).


Wow *
by dubirish  (2015-01-02 13:27:51)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post


might of been; shouldda been; couldda been.
by LAW83  (2015-01-02 12:56:11)     Delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Can't rewrite history. The real question would be, would those in power at the time, have had the foresight to have moved on him, and offered him?


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