a pro team. He does not have an offense that would be appealing in the pros. He has done a lousy job on special teams. I son't see why he would be desirable to any pro team.
This stuff can come up in searches.
(Now THAT will come up in Google searches, too.)
coach against Brian Kelly
he just runs out of time.
Specifically the B list candidates.
As long as we don't let ESPN handle our search, we'll land on our feet and be better for it in 2 years.
I am going to have an awful lot of free time to catch up on my reading.
Jack has stated in pretty much concrete terms that he will only pursue coaches with significant college experience.
So I don't think we have to worry about Trestman.
As a preface, I don't like Kelly. I never really have for many reasons. I won't restate them all here. But, I am predisposed to wanting him to go.
So, now my question ...
Who here thinks we are ready to secure a viable replacement if he leaves?
I don't. Nothing about the 2008 and 2009 postseason encourages me to think we'd get the next hire right. And, nothing before Swarbrick's tenure makes me believe ND does this well at all.
We'll screw it up again.
I guess my answer is that we're probably as prepared as anyone these days. What schools in memory really seemed to have their shit together and hired an all star coach? In retrospect, the best hires I recall are:
1) Saban, Alabama - however this is after they tripped all over themselves trying to hire Rich Rod and thought they had him and finally got turned down. While this was going on, Saban realized this NFL shit wasn't for him. Then Alabama backed up the Brinks truck to get him to save face from the Rich Rod diaster (i.e. blessing).
2) Carrol, USC - I think we all know what a clusterfuck that hiring process was. Carrol was choice 5 or 6 and everyone laughed at them when they made it.
3) Meyer, FLA - Everyone loves Foley for his hiring of Meyer and McElwain. But he was also responsible for hiring Zook and Muschamp...both of which turned out so bad that he a month head start on everyone else to find their replacements. And there is no guarantee McElwain turns out to be any good at FLA.
4) Meyer, OSU - The result of a huge clusterfuck with Tressel and being forced into using an interim coach for a year. Meanwhile as it turns out, one of best coaching minds decides to hang it up and do some announcing. That coach was also born and raised in Ohio and sitting on the sidelines when it was time for OSU to find a full time replacement.
5) Tie Chip Kelly, Jimbo Fisher, Mark Helfrich - All of which were internal hires and products of their system. This is more of testament to Mike Bellotti and lesser extent Bobby Bowden than their AD's.
Ultimately, based on #5 above, it turns out that its Lou Holtz's fault we're in this mess to begin with! He had to go and hire Bob Davie and curse us with 20yrs of mediocre football. (kidding)
Who cares if we're prepared, its more about whether we're gonna get lucky.
I don't think ND would land a good replacement in January. I'd generally rather have an interim coach than make a long-term mistake on some dildo like Fitzgerald. But next year's team really could be decent, and that would be wasted with an interim coach.
Dan Mullen is the name that seems to come up most often. I'm not sure about Dan Mullen. He's outpacing Mississippi State's norm, in a great conference, but 2014 is the first and only year with the success we'd want. In his fourth and fifth seasons, he went a combined 15-11.
Still, while he wouldn't be my first choice (Malzahn would be), I'd probably hire Mullen if possible. If not, I think I'd use an interim coach and see what the pool looks like in 2015.
it basically fucks up two recruiting classes.
This one could come apart at the seams with an interim coach and then what kid is going to listen to a recruiting pitch from a lame duck, interim coach for the next class?
much else about Mullen.
of not finding somebody new. Not quite the same situation, but the adage does apply here.
I'd much rather cut my losses with a known mistake and take my chances on finding my nut, as blind as this squirrel has been.
did with the Poodle. No one thought he would be worth a shit when USC hired him. I tend to agree with you and figure the only way we get a great hire at this point and with who we know to exist is if it happens by accident.
I want Kelly out of ND, but I almost view him as an interim coach right now. A warm body that is I guess better than Ty at least to hopefully tread water until we find someone else that swings open/ready to come.
To get a great coach we need to be like Florida and fire Kelly mid season. Then we are first in line for whatever exists that year. Oddly, that's more or less what we did with Faust and we got Holtz that time.
Jack has proven himself savvier than most believed several times over the last few years (the Weis and Kelly debacles aside). I think he's learned his lessons and he's out there talking to interested parties. I don't know anything, but I think that if Kelly leaves us high, we won't be dry.
I was talking specifically about having a short-list ready when Weis shit the bed and Kelly flirted with the NFL. I guess we don't know for certain that JS didn't have someone warming up in the bullpen in January 2013, and I'm not sure I can completely blame him given how much momentum Kelly had at that point.
I'd even settle for an eye talian this time.
There are few options better than Kelly., whatever his limitations. Easy to fire a coach, hard to replace him.
If we get it wrong it will not be due to incompetence, but lack of timely, quality replacements. Look around. You are delusional if you believe there are slam dunk options sitting out there. You are also delusional if you believe that the ND job is viewed as the best college gig there is.
I have heard many names thrown around here, and not one that is viable excites me. I have also not seem one hire by any school over the past two years that fires me up and that I think would fire up those on this board.
I am not trying to defend Kelly. I am just depressed at the options available.
but unless a Davie, Willingham, possibily Weis, there is nobody who could screw the team up worse than what we've just witnessed. That was an unbelievqbly bad coached team.
I'm sure after Kelly leaves I'll be wanting a better replacement because it is almost a given that a poor coach will be chosen. Hopefully it won't be the worst coach in the country which seems to be the modus operandi.
I know one thing I want Kelly fired and I likely never will wish he was ND's coach.
… when it comes to the 'slam dunk' hire that would excite the masses.
You lock the door, sit at the table and don't leave until there's a deal.
Give him what he wants.
Otherwise as I mentioned here yesterday, Utah's Kyle Whittingham should be targeted and I hope would be willing to make a move to a program like Notre Dame.
I like the way Utah plays and competes in the Pac-12 despite not having high level recruits across the board.
If you thought Kelly was small timey 5 years ago, or now for that matter, then Whittingham may not be the candidate for you.
How about 6-1 in bowl games including a beat down of Nick Saban and Alabama in the 2009 Sugar Bowl to cap off a 13-0 season?
We're talking about viable candidates if Kelly high tails it out of here in early January.
HIs teams fight like dogs in the Pac-12 despite having inferior talent.
If Bob Stoops or Dan Mullen aren't interested in two weeks, I'd really like to know your list of coaches who you'd think would take the job.
Make no mistake, Whittingham is not a home run hire and is no sure thing but in my opinion he may end up being the best option.
I've read a lot of speculation that Kelly was a poor hire to begin with because he lacked major program experience, and that made him incapable of achieving consistent high level success at ND. The argument that Kelly did well at Cincinnati with weak talent has been used against him by many, saying that he doesn't know what to do with elite athletes (not sure I agree with that last part, but it's an argument that's been made).
If that is the case, then we should look for someone who has been an assistant at a major program and then had some relative success as a head coach in a P5 conference.
Whittingham did a solid job taking over for Urban at Utah, and that one special season in 2008 is a huge feather in his cap, but in the four years since they joined the Pac 12 they have not elevated their program. They have finished 2nd to last in the Pac 12 South (only ahead of pitiful Colorado) 3 consecutive years, and this is the first time in 3 years that they were even bowl eligible. Sure, they've had some occasional upset wins but so has Northwestern, and 4 years in they're still closer to the cellar of their conference. Even his 2nd best team at Utah got dominated by a 4-5 ND team.
By comparison, Gary Patterson also lacks major program experience, succeeded in the Mountain West, won a major bowl game, and struggled initially after upgraded to a P5 conference. But unlike Whittingham, Patterson got his program back in the Top 10 in only his 3rd year after the conference upgrade.
So to answer your question, I would target Patterson before I would target Whittingham, and I'd look at a lot of other guys that have had more success than Whittingham has in major conferences (Dantonio, Mullen, Gundy, and others). But that's just my opinion. I think the larger point is that after Saban/Meyer/Stoops, there isn't a candidate out there who doesn't have some flaws in his resume.
roster talent of his Pac 12 competition (the exceptions being OSU,Colorado and Wazzou). They play a tough, hard-nosed brand of football. I have no sense of how he is as a recruiter.
He also knows an 11-1 OU team gets in before tOSU. I wouldn't be surprised if he shared the opinion that an 11-1 ND team would be on the outside looking in.
Now, Whittingham; that would be intriguing. I hope he doesn't end up at Michigan.
Saban/Meyer/Stoops. After that there will probably be diversity of opinion on anybody they might hire.
That's not to say that they shouldn't fire Kelly if he goes 8-4 next year, or 9-3 depending on how it looks. But unless Stoops wants the job this time, the best they can do is take a calculated risk on somebody with a flawed or incomplete resume.
Athletic Department. If one of my higher ranking employees had flirted with another company in 2012, I would certainly have a succession plan in place. My gut tells me the same has happened here. I think the Kelly/Eagles thing probably still irks the AD. If asked to predict who the next coach will be should Kelly leave in the next 3 weeks, I would say Mullen or Gruden. Please drink the beer before throwing the bottles...
showed up. Worked out well.
had to be someone internal.
with him interviewing post the 2012 shellacking it might have led the AD to put some feelers out for a replacement.
Also I share your opinion on BK. I've been patiently (not really) waiting his exit since 2010... In fact I've sort of lost interest in ND winning (never rooted for them to lose) and it's caused friction with my family because they can tell I don't like him.
championship winning or near championship winning (e.g., I personally don't consider 2012 to be 'near championship' for ND) or someone who's been highly competitive in one of the top conferences or the NFL then, no. Swarbrick might be ready to achieve that but I wouldn't think that it's likely. It's more likely that the only way we'll get a viable candidate is if Swarbrick finds someone who will grow into the job - he'll have to get lucky. And, yes, I'm fully, painfully aware that this is the normal way championship coaches are discovered but Notre Dame is not a normal school. It's not a very good incubator.
Ara - yes
Devine - I argue not. That hire was viewed as Joyce keeping a promise
Faust - Yikes
Lou - maybe, but had many rough spots on the old resume
Davie - no
Ty - no
Weis - no
Kelly - no
Our batting average isn't very good on hiring 'upper echelon' guys.
Devine's WP was .887 at ASU and .697 at Missouri. Holtz's WP was .719 at NC State and .735 at Arkansas. To this day, each of those WPs are the best at each of those schools in the last 90+ years.
That's not to deny ND was somewhat fortunate to land both coaches. Devine was about to be fired by the Packers, and Holtz was forced out of Arkansas by Broyles (WP: .707) and had a clause at Minnesota specifically allowing him to bolt at will if ND came calling. Nevertheless, both were upper-echelon college coaches who performed as well as we could reasonably expect.
what to make of that...probably not much, I guess.
Switzer won a Super Bowl but was fired 2 years later, so he's rightly deemed a failure, too. Other college coaches have succeeded in the NFL: Johnson (at Dallas, at least), Coughlin (although those two SB wins were pretty damned lucky), and so far, Chip Kelly.
I don't think the history bodes well for Shanty, should he land an NFL job.
I personally think he would be a pretty big upgrade over Kelly and would be happy to have him. But I agree that he's not an upper-echelon coach and maybe he wouldn't be as easy a hire as I think.
There is a shitload of money to be made in the SEC. Even if he wants to eventually leave Miss St, his view of upward mobility may be to bounce around within the conference the way that Saban, Petrino, and Spurrier have done in the past.
I think he'd satisfy the "highly competitive in one of the top conferences" piece. He probably wouldn't be my first choice but he'd be a definite upgrade over Kelly.
He's a flavor-of-the-month guy. He has lost more SEC games than he's won.
Top SEC coaches are untouchable. No other jobs can offer the same combination of money and availability of talent.
with less talent "available" to him than almost any other SEC school other than Vanderbilt.
Which, while good, would be monumentally embarrassing.
what is the timing of his departure? After the bowl game, before signing day? After signing day? Spring practice? Negotiating while preparing for our next Championship game?
Who is next in? Dan Mullens? Saban (gotta at least make that call)? Or, do you think the AD already has this lined up like when Ara left and when Faust left (their replacements - Devine and Holtz respectively - were in pretty quickly I think )?
And Cincinnati lost?
Notre Dame is not playing a big bowl game.
But the pickings may be slim if we haven't already started in earnest.
said that Kelly is NCAA coach most likely to the NFL
If any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Jack Swarbrick, our AD, right here tonight ...
He'd likely have to do some convincing of the folks above him.
But, c'mon this is ND. We're a bunch of stand-up guys. We don't contact other people while we already have a coach. That's not the way ND does business. Gotta take the high road. Be deferential to our coach.
wonder if that's enough to light Swarbrick's fire. He seems to rise to challenges at the conference level (though I think we're screwed in the playoff scheme.)
I suspect there is a lot of friction between the two. I know many here belittle the AD, but he's no dope and I think has a long memory.
any loyalty from anybody. I don't begrudge him wanting the NFL... but fucking around with the NC on the line makes him unsalvagable for a loyal fan base unless you win like crazy.
That's around the 15 minute mark...
You know who hired a great coach? Seattle. And Philly. Buffalo, too. The recent track records of college coaches in the NFL has been pretty good.
see them thinking they would save money by getting Kelly. However, they signed a big contract with Cutler so the family might be not as thrifty as they used to be.
Oakland is making their way out of the insane asylum, so they may be less inclined to make irrational decisions.
I can't see San Francisco touching Kelly. Miami maybe.
Harbaugh fell into their lap.
Don't rule them out for the Kelly sweepstakes.
Jed York is related to Debartolo and went to ND apparently at the same time I did. Never partied with the kid. It's hilarious to me considering what I do for a living at this age and that he has been tasked with running an NFL organization. Regardless, no doubt he has noticed the ND malfeasance and won't bite on Kelly.
For the same reason, I think that Harbaugh to ND would be negated by the fact that the Debartolo clan does not seem to be a Harbaugh fan.
and the PTB would hand over the keys to the anti-christ.
If Kelly can't do particularly well with a team (ND) that has more talent than at least 80% of its opponents, how is he going field a winning team in the pros, where the playing field is much more level? I just don't get why pro teams would be attracted to him.
Gruden, Snyder will have a helluva time getting someone who's got a successful NFL track record.
BK has next level schemes... a schematic advantage even. He has wonderfully designed plays. He knows just when to call the right play. Unfortunately he has been let down by players who fail to execute...
Now if he had professional players who didn't let him down - think of how he would shine!
He could also field a staff of his cronies, including Bob Diaco and Chuck Martin.
Make room for a Lombardi Trophy.
do what Kelly demands of a quarterback.
Here is how someone would justify hiring him (not saying it is correct, but this is probably the party line):
- He won at Cincy and he brought ND to the national championship game
- Started well this year, but defense got ravaged by injury. Had to deal with academic issues
- Hasn't had good QB's but still managed to get 12, 9 and 7 (maybe 8) wins out of them the last few years
- He's a good gameday play caller. Plays are open, players don't execute.
- He is bad at special teams and defense, but he can hire for that and he's going to be dealing with professional athletes, not walk ons. He doesn't need to coach them up, they already have been
- ND is similar to the NFL microscope and he hasn't blown himself up in the spotlight. He can talk the talk
We can obviously poke holes in any of the above statements, but I think the most important reality is this. Mike Smith, Marc Trestman, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Ken Whisenhut are likely gone in the next 2 weeks, and a few more guys might be joining them (lovey Smith, Coughlin, Gus Bradley). The pool of potential replacements isn't deep and doesn't include the best college coaches (Saban, Meyer, Fisher).
He does a shit job getting his team prepared on a consistent basis.
His record hiring assitants has been mediocre.
Coughlin is a good example. He was never a coordinator at any level. His record at BC was good but not outstanding. But he was a competent CEO type HC who ran a tight operation. He was up to the task of being a pro coach, which is actually a skill few coaches have.
Of course, Coughlin was tutored by Parcells, while Kelly is so wonderfully self-taught. So it's not apples to apples. But there are similarities in style, discipline, and organization. And I bet NFL teams think Kelly can at least manage the job, which is a priority in a world where the Mark Trestmans and Jim Schwartzes--tremendous X's and O's guys--wither when they become top dog.
Please stop with the negativity or we're never going to get rid of this guy
of coaching experience and any team who hires him will not regret it.
I assume Feldman has no ties to Trace Armstrong.