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Reports From the Front Lines

All in all, posters are reporting a marked change in atmosphere inside the stadium and many noted that you could hear the results through the television in a crowd that was much more connected to the game and [gasp] having fun. Positive changes are happening.

The excise police "forced Breathalyzer" seems to be the main complaint. If you have a problem with unfair police or usher tactics, please send them to: fortheloveofnd@gmail.com. They're going to be taking affidavits, collecting stories and posting video and pictures of reported abuse on their website. Remember to bring your camera to games to document any incidents and note the section number take a moment to get the usher's name. They also have a team of lawyers to advise you.

Here are the reports from the front lines.
  • We were tailgating in the Stadium Lot about 30 yards from Legends. The family across the aisle from us had one of those large tent-like things set up with some chairs, a picnic table, grill and other tailgating items. Around noon or so, they are simply enjoying the weather and good company when a girl, age 20, was approached by 5 law enforcement types. Two cops, two NDSP folks and one other person whose affiliation I couldn't really determine. They asked the girl what she was drinking (rum and coke), how old she was (20) and if they could see her ID. When she couldn't produce her ID, they went into full gestapo mode. Breathalyzer, intense questioning, etc. all as this girl stood there in hysterics trying to understand why she was being singled out. For the better part of and hour this girl and her parents pleaded with the police and kept repeating one line which struck me, "This is not right."
  • These folks were minding their own business on a pretty tame morning as far as tailgating goes and were completely shook down by the cops and NDSP. On top of all that, they had a WNDU guy following them around for a story about the crackdown on underage drinking.
    The only silver lining I took from this whole incident was that several people were taking pictures and video of the incident on their cameras and phones. The whole scene was just disgusting. If you're one of those guys who were asking the names of the officers and taking pictures, thank you and keep fighting the good fight.
  • I knew of someone that refused the breathalyzer this weekend. He got out of jail at around 1 or 2 this afternoon. They used a number of tactics, including strapping him down in a chair and putting him in a separate cell, just to get him to breathalyze. He never did and they kept him for as long as they could. He spent almost 24 hours and jail and was still charged with PI. I know what the consensus on here was regarding blowing or not, but it seems like they are intimidating people into breathalizing.
  • I see a Title 42 USC 1983 action developing.
  • Two ushers watched a kid doing pushups behind me in 25. It happened multiple times. Neither said a word.
  • Does anyone know why the girl in the green jersey with brown vest over it was getting ejected from the game? I was on my way back down to the field as the ushers were escorting her out, and she didn't seem intoxicated, plus there had been no big plays in the past few minutes. Was this a legitimate heave-ho, or more abuse of power?
  • I videotaped an ejection yesterday. I'll post it later with my thoughts.
  • There was definitely a different feeling about the ushers... From what I heard, there were almost no incidents with ushers on Saturday, either in the student section or elsewhere. One student I spoke with simply complained that they were being strict about students attempting to move between sections, but that's hardly something worth complaining about. If the University has advised Cappy and his bunch to modify their directives, I think some kudos are warranted. It'll be a gradual process, but it appears as though the initial steps have been taken towards taking back our University.
  • As a sophomore in the band, I have now seen ten away teams walk up the tunnel and into their locker room prior to the band's pregame show. Stanford's team is not only the first team that has acknowledged the presence of the band lining their path to the locker room, but also the first to trash talk us. One guy, a DT named James McGillicuddy, pranced around and loudly repeated the phrase to several teammates, "This one time at band camp!" Doug Baldwin, the receiver that put up the last touchdown for Stanford, strutted by us shortly after we finished playing the victory march, yelling, "PLAY ANOTHER SONG!" Others acted in similar manner. I can only imagine how intimidating our team must have been to make them scurry into the tunnel and take it out on us. I laughed pretty hard after they had sifted through, and felt that much more confident about the game. Also I looked for McGillicuddy on the field after the game to get a word with him, but I think he must have been one of the first into the tunnel.

66 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did not realize how ridiculous "Son of Suds" is really getting until I read your article. Can you publish the distinguished names of all of the Michiana's dedicated police officiers to the young (and maybe old) ND alumni like myself. I have a feeling with some "Gentle" pressure they may disappear. It would be helpful if all people who run into this situation copy down and post their names. Thanks.

9:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was at the game Saturday and have to admit to not seeing any of this. My friend has a parking pass and parked in Section 13. There was nothing of consequence near us. I sat in section 9 Row 40. My mother needed help getting to her seat and the usher walked her up 40 flights of steps and offered to help her after the game. There was also an elderly gentleman that fell walking down the steps after the games and the ushers and paramedics did a great job helping this gentleman.

9:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you read your own crap? If a girl aged 20 is drinking a Rum and Coke, why shouldn't the police give her a hard time? She's breaking the law. Legal drinking age is 21. I'm still waiting for the first lawsuit. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long, long time. Get over it.

9:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you are with your parents and under control, that's good enough for me.

10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the poster who started his comment with "Do you read your own crap?" The police should not give her a hard time because she is being supervised by her parents, is not a safety concern, and not causing anyone a problem, dumbass. Querry: is it ever the police's job to give a anyone a "hard time?" The rational thing to do is to tell her to dump it out and don't do it again or parents and daughter will be arrested. The extreme and senseless approach would be to arrest them on the spot with no commotion or fan fare. But there is absolutely no point in giving the girl "hard time" for an hour. In that hour, the officer probably missed multiple legitimate safety concerns arising due to excessive drunkeness. The officer's actions (if the story is true), like your post, demonstrate exactly the type of stupidity and lack of common sense that undermines the tailgating environment. The notion that the law is the law and anyone in violation of the exact letter of the law should go to jail is idiotic and simply wrong. You ever drive a few mph's over the speed limit? IF you have ever been issued a moving violation, did the officer berate and question you for an hour, or just write you the ticket? Which makes more sense?

10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The girl was probably 20 years, 11 months and 28 days old. I would think that having your parents with you and spending all of the $$$ it would cost to support ND, that the University would be more lenient after finding out she was with her family. Not a crowd of underaged and overzealous party animals.

10:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you're not 21 it's illegal to drink. Period. If you don't understand that, you're a dumbass.

10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. Do you yell at your kids when they spill milk as well, you retentive nazi?

11:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not illegal to spill milk. Actually, I help them clean it up and try to help them understand how they might avoid spilling next time. When they're older, I'll protect them from being harassed by the police by not letting them drink at our tailgate until they're 21. The law doesn't read "unless accompanied by parent"

11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope 21-period guy is charged for every violation of the law he ever commits until the day he dies. From jaywalking, to speeding, to rolling stop signs. Perhaps that way he'll see what a moronic stance that is and understand why law enforcement has never worked that way.

11:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yes, it's illegal to drink if you are under 21. everyone is aware of that. the comparison to a moving violation is a good one, if the cop stops you they give you the ticket and everyone moves on with their lives. if they are going to ticket an underage drinker it should be the same way. give the ticket, dump the drink and move on. there is no reason for them to spend an hour giving the group a hard time. its an issue of the method of enforcement.

11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm unclear on what constitutes a "hard time", but a hours worth seems like a lot of it?

12:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since ND is a Catholic school, I'd like to point out that this pig-headed obsession with the letter of the law (Pharisaical, if you will) was condemned by none other than Jesus.
So suck it.

12:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @9:33 & 11:39 AM:

OK, the law doesn't read "...unless accompanied by a parent"; does it need to?

Al Capone was taken down on a technical violation of the law that occurrs beyond routinely.

OJ will get more time for his crime than the crime itself warrants, because of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.

The point: the law is ALWAYS written with a broader scope than is intended in its application--so that those whom we charge with the delicate fiduciary duty of its enforcement, will exercise discretion in discharging said duty.

When they abuse that discretion, they compel a tigher rewriting of the law--which will have the unintended but inevitable consequence of becoming unenforcable against many of the very people whom it was intended to target in the first place.

The Duke LaCrosse matter comes to mind. Mike Nafong was within his discretion to purse the case originally. Howevr, had he exercised proper discretion in the early stages, he wouldn't have committed to an indefensible position, which prompted him to essentially violate the law in order to defend the indefensible. He is of course, disbarred now as a result. (Had his abuses been of a larger scope, it may have resulted in a tighter writing of the anti-rape laws--to the benefit of rapists throughout NC).

In other words, in his zeal to enforce the letter of the law, he violated the public trust by his abuse of discretion--in picking which laws to enforce, and under what circumstances--and actually threatened to weaken the very law he was charged with upholding.

The bottom line: the law is NOT a self-effecting mechanism. It relies on human beings to enforce it. Believe it or not, non-descrete, over-zealous unforcement of the law undermines the very rule of law--it doesn't reinforce it. If we were to attempt to enforce every law on the books at every possible indication of a violation, the law--in fact, the entire legal system--would collapse completely onto itself, and too much law would be replaced with no law at all (i.e.--anarchy).

Coming around full circle: a little restraint on the part of the officers is not only appropriate--it is necessary.

12:14 PM  
Anonymous James 46544 said...

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this.

It's interesting to watch the situation develop and read everyone's thoughts... Can we change the subject and put this much energy into solving the financial crisis?

Seems like there's enough rational folks on here that you could find a workable solution. =)

12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The tailgate incident that you have described was my family's. The WNDU video account of this incident is on their website. The University of Illinois student was seated in a chair along our tents talking to her best friend from ND when the squad of enforcement officers and WNDU camera approached her. According to the officers she "hid" her drink by placing in it the cup holder on her chair. This action is what drew their attention. Excise police officer Tim Cleveland is quoted in the video clip as saying we are only looking for people who" are causing problems, drawing attention to themselves or so intoxicated that they can't function and are in danger to themselves and others". This young woman is clearly seated, enjoying the sun and talking to her friend. She had been at our tailgate for approximately 25 minutes before the police appeared. The police asked her "What was in the cup?". They did not test it. They did not see her drinking it. She did not have a purse or ID so her only option was" to sign a citation that she was an underaged drinker or be arrested and brought down to jail". The enforcement group was intimidating and rude. We had about 40 friends at our family barbeque! There were 10 underage guests and family members all drinking coke, sprite and water in the same cups. None of them were approached even though they were right around her. This all occurred around 12:30 . It ruined our family's afternoon as well as all of our guests. Please watch the video for yourselves at www.wndu.com - Local News - Crackdown on tailgating at Notre Dame's Campus.

12:30 PM  
Blogger DMW said...

Why again is Notre Dame allowing the 'excise police' to roam on campus?

1:00 PM  
Anonymous Mike '73 said...

I suspect "Anonymous" will soon be applying for employment with the SBPD, or the Excise Police, or the Indiana State Police. he'll fit right in, if not already there.

1:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's not be ridiculous. There's a 55 mph speed limit in most places, but you don't arrest people going 60 mph. The 21 year old drinking age is a bit silly and helps create the problem rather than solve. Accordingly, it's assinine to arrest 20 year olds having a drink with their families.

They should only step in if it's obvious someone's drunk and in danger or if it's underage tailgate that's obviously going to be a problem.

Somehow, the rest of division I gets by without a Gestapo and they do just fine.

Police should break up big parties, look out for public safety and serve warnings to people.

It's a big party, show some common sense.

1:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bottom line, do the police have to enforce the drinking age law at tailgates, and do they have to handle it the way the have been recently? No. BUT, if what you're doing is against the law, then I guess they have the right to enforce that law if they choose to. Goes both ways. The cops can choose whether to enforce or not and how. If you're underage and choose to drink, you are choosing to put yourself at risk based on how they may decide to enforce or not enforce the law.

1:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You ND people kill me, you don't think the law should apply to and you should be able to do whatever you want because you better than everybody else. What kinds of things are you teaching your children when you allow them to drink underage? Your telling them that the laws of the land don't matter and do whatever you want. I bet you would also be the first ones to try to sue the police if your child was hit by a car, or injured in some other way, when they are walking into traffic drunk. Or maybe they just drink too much and die from alcohol poisoning. I sure that it will be everyone else's fault but yours. You people are pathetic. I think the answer is that ND should do away with drinking and tailgating altogether.

1:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“We're looking for those that are causing problems, drawing attention to themselves, ones that are so intoxicated that they can't function. It can be a danger to themselves or others,” after watching the video on wndu, http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/30395794.html# , it's pretty clear that statment is bull. that girl was just sitting in a chair. they had to spotlight her in the video so you could see who they were talking about.

1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well anon 12:30pm the whole incident isn't posted on WNDU. If this is the incident I witnessed in white field my opinion is the Police should have arrested her and the lady that claimed to be her mother. Not to mention the guy going after WNDU's camera man. I suppose you condone the girl who was underage lying about her age. It doesn't matter whether she had a purse or not, the point is she lied about her age and was not old enough to drink. Those cops showed true patience and professionalism. Your group was the most overbearing and self-righteous bunch I have ever seen. I have no idea how the cops kept their tempers with the way they were treated by your family. You should be ashamed. With regards to the interview with Cleveland he said they are looking for people who "draw attention to themselves". Trying to hide a drink upon seeing the Police qualifies.

1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I watched 8 students around me get ejected throughout the course of the game. They did not appear to be intoxicated and were not disturbing anyone. This happened in section 30 near the top of the student section. The usher was looking for anyone to give him a reason to throw him out. Even with 3 minutes left in the game, he was patrolling the section and questioning students. I am a 2008 graduate and can say things have definitely changed in the past five years in the student section.

1:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As Mark Twain stated 100 years ago, "First get your facts straight, then you may distort them any way you please."

These are the facts:

"Indiana
- No one under the age of 21 years is allowed to consume, transport, or possess alcohol. But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian. Something also interesting, no one under the age of 18 is allowed in tavern, bar, or other public place where alcoholic beverages are sold, bartered, exchanged, given away, provided, or furnished. But is allowed when the child is with a parent, guardian, trustee, or other person having custody of the child, and who is older that 21 years of age. This law does not apply to places like a sports arena, convention center, and etc. (the complete list is found at the given link below). Anyone under the age of 21 can not drive any motor vehicle with a BAC of .02 but less than a BAC of .08. For anyone 21 years of age or older can not drive if they have a BAC of .08 but less than a BAC of .15."

Notice the second sentence, "But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian." This is generally the case unless specified by a particular State's law.

The cops should show restraint, inquire as to whether the parents are with the child, and if so, mention that displays of public drunkenness are violations.

Unfortunately, in cases like those occurring at ND Stadium and the various parking lots, the cops are out of control.

2:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As Mark Twain stated 100 years ago, "First get your facts straight, then you may distort them any way you please."

These are the facts:

"Indiana
- No one under the age of 21 years is allowed to consume, transport, or possess alcohol. But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian. Something also interesting, no one under the age of 18 is allowed in tavern, bar, or other public place where alcoholic beverages are sold, bartered, exchanged, given away, provided, or furnished. But is allowed when the child is with a parent, guardian, trustee, or other person having custody of the child, and who is older that 21 years of age. This law does not apply to places like a sports arena, convention center, and etc. (the complete list is found at the given link below). Anyone under the age of 21 can not drive any motor vehicle with a BAC of .02 but less than a BAC of .08. For anyone 21 years of age or older can not drive if they have a BAC of .08 but less than a BAC of .15."

Notice the second sentence, "But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian." This is generally the case unless specified by a particular State's law.

The cops should show restraint, inquire as to whether the parents are with the child, and if so, mention that displays of public drunkenness are violations.

Unfortunately, in cases like those occurring at ND Stadium and the various parking lots, the cops are out of control.

2:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As Mark Twain stated 100 years ago, "First get your facts straight, then you may distort them any way you please."

These are the facts:

"Indiana
- No one under the age of 21 years is allowed to consume, transport, or possess alcohol. But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian. Something also interesting, no one under the age of 18 is allowed in tavern, bar, or other public place where alcoholic beverages are sold, bartered, exchanged, given away, provided, or furnished. But is allowed when the child is with a parent, guardian, trustee, or other person having custody of the child, and who is older that 21 years of age. This law does not apply to places like a sports arena, convention center, and etc. (the complete list is found at the given link below). Anyone under the age of 21 can not drive any motor vehicle with a BAC of .02 but less than a BAC of .08. For anyone 21 years of age or older can not drive if they have a BAC of .08 but less than a BAC of .15."

Notice the second sentence, "But he/she is allowed to consume, transport, or posses alcohol when supervised by the parent or guardian." This is generally the case unless specified by a particular State's law.

The cops should show restraint, inquire as to whether the parents are with the child, and if so, mention that displays of public drunkenness are violations.

Unfortunately, in cases like those occurring at ND Stadium and the various parking lots, the cops are out of control.

2:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to anon at 1:49,
go to the link in the post above yours and watch the video. i believe you will see the incident anon @ 12:30 was talking about. also please notice that it is on www.wndu.com, and apologize.

2:11 PM  
Anonymous Todd Ulrich '01 said...

It's pretty simple - I'm not donating a PENNY more to this school, until the administration changes this policy and stops mistreating the students and fans.

The girl in that video was minding her own business - not causing any trouble - for god's sake leave her alone! Better yet, why aren't the 'excise' police patrolling the neighborhoods of south bend, looking for people toting drugs and guns???? There is no shortage them!!!!!!

unbelievable.

2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 2:11pm..I did watch both videos on WNDU. And as I typed in my post the "WHOLE" incident is not on there. Just a fraction of the entire incident. Now should I await your apology for your lack of reading comprehension skills?

To Todd: With hold all of your money for all anyone cares. You could use it to pay your overdue library fines so you can study up on the function and responsibilities of the State Excise Police. Aw heck, save your money, I'll help you out..they enforce the laws in the State of Indiana having to do with the ALCOHOL code.

To the Mark Twain poster: post the law as it is written, not your version. The supervision of a parent or guardian ONLY APPLIES to subsection 3 of that code which is the transportation of alcohol on a public highway. Underage CONSUMPTION of alcohol is ILLEGAL whether your mommy and daddy are there or not.

Nothing like twisting things to make your argument.

3:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, what Anon 2:11 said!

3:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You mean YEAH, what Anon 2:22 said!

3:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 3:04 PM

Your mindset is clearly in the minority - the sentiment among most alumni and students is that the police and administration have stepped way over the line with the recent enforcement efforts.

You're backed into a corner, and the PR battle has only just begun. The University will suffer as long as people like you continue to support this outrageous conduct by the police and security. Lawsuits will follow if things don't drastically change.

So go ahead, continue vigorously defending the status quo...you're not stopping this train.

4:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In reference to anon 1:49. The incident did not occur in the White Field. The young woman never lied about her age, what was in the cup and no one attacked or tried to attack the camera man. If you watched the video you would see everyone standing around while she signed the citation. Did they look like they were attacking? Family members were trying to talk to the officers and figure out exactly what was the violation.
Maybe there was a second incident that you were witnessing in the White Field. Don't you think WNDU would have shown the whole story? Maybe you would like to talk to the priest that was standing by the young woman during the entire incident!

4:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "white field" incident and the "Stadium lot" incident are clearly two different events. Please don't speak so adamently about something of which you know nothing about.

4:35 PM  
Blogger Curtis said...

I live in San Jose,CA and was in South Bend for the Stanford game. Before coming out I read some comments and was a little concerned about the stories I was reading about the police. We tailgated near Mendoza and I have to say that most of my fears were unfounded. I did notice a much larger police presence than I had remembered from th last game that I attended but they didn't bother anyone that was near us. The only incident occurred once I was in the stadium. After that last TD scored by Notre Dame, some guys near us hoisted a girl up for push-ups (28 times). Immediately an usher came over and told them that if they did it again they would be thrown out. Everyone in our section booed him until he went away.

4:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

[Edited & re-posted [previously posted in haste]]

Anon @9:33 & 11:39 AM

OK, the law doesn't read "...unless accompanied by a parent"; does it need to?

Al Capone was taken down on a technical violation of the law that occurrs beyond routinely.

OJ will get more time for his crime than the crime itself warrants, because of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.

The point: the law is ALWAYS written with a broader scope than is intended in its application--so that those whom we charge with the delicate fiduciary duty of its enforcement, will exercise discretion in discharging said duty.

When they abuse that discretion, they compel a tigher rewwriting of the law--which will have the unintended but inevitable consequence of becoming unenforceable against many of the very people whom it was intended to target in the first place.

The Duke LaCrosse matter comes to mind. Mike Nafong was technically within his discretion to pursue the case originally. However, had he exercised proper discretion in the early stages, he wouldn't have committed to an indefensible position, which prompted him to essentially violate the law in order to defend the indefensible. He is of course, disbarred now as a result. (Had his abuses been of a larger scope, it may have resulted in a tighter re-writing of the anti-rape laws--to the benefit of rapists throughout NC).

In other words, in his zeal to enforce the letter of the law, he violated the public trust by his abuse of discretion--in picking which laws to enforce, and under what circumstances--and actually threatened to weaken the very law he was charged with upholding.

The bottom line: the law is NOT a self-effectuating mechanism. It relies on human beings to enforce it. Believe it or not, non-descretionary, over-zealous enforcement of the law undermines the very rule of law--it doesn't reinforce it. If we were to attempt to enforce every law on the books at every possible indication of a violation, the law--in fact, the entire legal system--would collapse completely onto itself, and too much law would be replaced with no law at all (i.e.--anarchy).

Coming full circle: a little restraint on the part of the officers is not only appropriate--it is necessary.

4:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Like I said the incident I witnessed was in White field and a WNDU crew was filming. The posted video footage was eerily similar to the one I witnessed as far as the background. And go back to WNDU they must have cut the footage short because there is no video of her signing the ticket.

To anon 4:14pm..I think you are in the minority. The enforcement efforts are no different now than they were last year or the last several years. Perception and reality are 2 different animals. All the mods on here need to do is call the NDPD and ask for the stats regarding citations and arrests for the last several years. NDPD does keep these records. 100 to 150 different stories of alleged mistreatment does not constitute "out of control" tactics. Especially when these incidents took place at different times over the years. There are roughly, on average, about 83,000 fans in and around campus on gameday and this is a conservative number. 40 to 60 arrests out of 83,000 hardly seems like a huge crackdown to me. And the veracity of some of these stories doesn't quite pass the "smell test".

To anon 4:35..I can and will speak of anything I want to..especially the incident I witnessed. If you don't like it too bad. Talk about a fascist.

4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Notre Dame needs to join the other colleges who are fighting to lower the drinking age to 18. This will solve many of the tailgating issues. While public intoxication will still be monitored, the real reason the excise police are out there is to nab underage drinkers. This will no longer be an issue with a lower drinking age. If you can vote or go to war, then you should damn well be able to drink a beer at age 18.

The poster who referred to the posters as "you ND people" is probably the same guy who litters on his way home from work, drives over the speed limit twice daily, and writes off erroneous items on his tax return. Hypocrites are fun to listen to.

5:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @ 5:23 PM:

Agreed on all counts, except:

"the real reason the excise police are out there is to nab underage drinkers."

Nope. The real reason is to generate tax revenues, period.

The "safety" talk--mere rationalization.

5:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In case anyone is interested, the seemingly unaffiliated person from the first anecdote was almost certainly Scott Kachmarik, an Associate Director in ORLH. I know him from when I was a student and saw him in that area with several NDSP and Excise Police. The General Counsel may want to talk to him about getting involved in such interrogations, definitely could open the University up to 1983 liability.

5:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I, too, witnessed the girl in stadium south with her parents. Supposedly, the police rushed her because it looked like "she tried to hide her drink behind her back" when the cop looked at her. I also heard that her father (who was with her) is a pretty big donor. The girl wasn't doing anything but cooking out with her mom and dad under a tent. Our tailgate was right next to them. There was absolutely no reason to even approach them. It was a family. The whole situation was uncalled for.

6:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems as if most of the people posting comments to this blog have forgotten that the freedom to choose our actions comes with the equally important responsibility to face the consequences of those actions. They go hand in hand and can not be separated.

My parents were part of the "greatest generation". My father, and those of my friends, served in World War 2. I learned this important concept from them; I must take responsibility for my actions. Children of the generation that followed seems to have missed this lesson.

Think about it...The person who chooses to rob a bank and then gets caught screams that (fill in your own excuse here) made him/her do it. Shoplifting, assault, rape, vandalism, and yes, underage drinking are all illegal personal actions. Let's not forget that law enforcement officers must take responsibility for their actions too. No one is above personal responsibility.

Whether you like it or not, Indiana State law says a person must be 21 years old to consume alcohol. If you want the law changed, go complain to the state legislature, not Notre Dame. If you think you're going to pressure any law enforcement agency into not enforcing the law, you are sadly ignorant. If you think that you've been the victim of police misconduct, then you need to report it to the proper authority, not NDNation. And most importantly, if you've been caught in violation of the law (or rules) then you need to take responsibility and face the consequences of your actions, not make excuses for them!

6:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You people that think that it is ok to get underage kids drunk and not take responsibility for your actions are idiots. It seems that most of the people posting on this site are not from the area. Well, keep it that way. If you don't like how you are treated when you come to the games then stay home. You are arrogant, egotistical morons anyway. Let me guess you are the same people that get invited to other peoples homes and then complain about what they are serving for dinner. I am sure you are right in those instances too, because you are so freaking special because you went to Notre Dame (BIG FREAKIN DEAL). Take the silver spoon out of your mouth for a second and realize that the world does not revolve around you belly button. You people are the reasons that others can't stand Notre Dame, you are snot nosed little rich kids that want everything your way and if you don't get your way you threaten to sue because daddy has lots of money. Cry me a river, you don't have a leg to stand on. Get over yourselves and keep you cry baby butts at home. Nobody wants you around anyway. The answer to this whole problem is do away with tailgating and drinking at the games and make the day about the game not how drunk you can get your kids.

8:13 PM  
Anonymous Bret said...

It's a matter of priorities. ND and the state police hold busting students in higher regard than cleaning up that garbage, piece of #@$# town known as South Bend. As a student who graduated in 2008, I lived there and the place is in the depths of hell. Crackheads, prostitutes, burglars, and overall f'ed up people roam the streets. Protect the students, don't hassle and arrest the only population that makes it a town.

Secondly, the police don't just try to intimidate those who are under 21. The police tried to arrest people they said were intoxicated at my tailgate and everyone was 21 and older. It took a band of 40 people to stand together and not give the police any information, not consent to a breathalyzer, and keep the cameras on them the whole time. The Indiana excise police are cowards when they realize their unconstitutional behavior is exposed.

You suck anonymous cop supporter. Eat shit and kill yourself.

8:34 PM  
Anonymous joe said...

Wow Bret, "eat shit and kill yourself", I bet your parents are so proud. I would think that after four years at one of the finest schools in America you could convey your thoughts a little more intelligently. You were probably the idiot in Sec. 116 being escorted out for bringing in your stash of Pabst Blue Ribbon right before half time. As for your comments on South Bend, why don't you try being part of the solution Bret? The world dosen't revolve around your tailgate or yourself you self-absorbed jackass. Good luck out in the real world with an attitude like yours.

9:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the arguments given for the police to have less presence enforcing alcohol laws has to do with other, more serious crimes that take place in South Bend.

Yet, while many other things deserve OUR attention--an election, bank failures, even the actual performance of the football team--really important stuff, we are pissed off because of efforts to curb underage and binge drinking.

Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

Full disclosure. I drank in college. I snuck shnapps into games in November. I had a few beers underage at SYRs. But, guess what? If I got busted for drinking, it was my fault. Not Excise (who are not acting unconstitutionally when patrolling). Not the University. Not a pain in the ass RA. Me.

If today I speed, or run a stoplight, or drink too much before getting behind the wheel, and I'm pulled over, it's on me.

If the punishments for speeding are different from what they are for minor consumption, that's not an issue for Excise. That's a matter for the state legislature. Excise enforces the law. If they see a violation, they have to follow the legal procedures for it, and minor consumption calls for arrest, not citation.

If you want to drink underage, do it. If you adults want to get hammered, more power to you. Just don't do it in plain view of folks looking for someone just like you do to just what you are doing. ND students tend to be pretty bright, so I am sure they can figure out smarter ways to drink than in areas that are hotspots for patrols. Good grief, when I attended, the last place we drank was tailgates--too many cops!

And, if you are busted, look no further than the mirror for the person responsible.

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think there's a difference between having a beer and "gettin' drunk". I don't think most people here would have a problem if the Excise Police or whoever was busting an underage kid creating a ruckus. But the problem is that they are targeting people who are not creating any problems at all. Do you really believe that the girl in the video was doing something that would threaten the security of those around her? How are you supposed to teach your kids to drink responsibly and behave? Or would you rather wait till they turn 21, let them go to a bar and let them have 21 shots? Might be legal, but doesn't make it right...

Oh, and one more note. I'm an '07 grad. I also believe the police has way better things to do in South Bend than busting kids. Proved by the fact that the University will do EVERYTHING in it's power to keep students on-campus. Does that make me a self-absorbed jackass? Think what you will, I couldn't care less.

11:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Or Anon 11:05pm the parents of the girl in the video could have taught her a lesson on PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Was she hurting anyone? Certainly not. Could the Police gone after someone who was drinking a little more heavily? Yep. But that is not the case. She and her parents CHOSE to KNOWINGLY violate the law and she got caught. Yea, it sucks, but welcome to reality. The excise Police are hired by the University to target UNDERAGE DRINKING. Don't blame the Police for simply doing their jobs. If you or anyone else is hired to do a specific job then you do it. Would you expect the Doctor in the E.R. to not treat a person with the flu because everyone has had the flu and it's not a big deal. But sometimes the flu bug can develop into something serious if not treated and a patient will die. Similar to underage drinking. Everyone posting here has heard of students who die from drinking too much alcohol. So at what point are the Police supposed to intervene? They will certainly show up if the person dies, but why does it have to get that far. There are a large number of underage drinkers at these games. Some are responsible and others are not. Who really knows how many lives have been saved by cops simply writing a ticket?

12:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 12:11, you actually proved the point of many here when you said that ND hired the excise to bust underage drinking. I thought according to excise, NDSP, SBPD etc that they were here to protect us? Oh, it's to bust underage drinking? Ok then, be honest about it. Don't give us this serve and protect bullstuff when we all know what's happening.

And before you get on your high and mighty "you make the choice blah blah blah" rant, I'll have you know that until turning 21 I chose not to tailgate because of the risk. Not looking for congratulations but proving a point that not everyone on the other side of the debate is an irresponsible hooligan.

As long as we're using the traffic violation analogy, I recently attended traffic school for a moving violation. The FORMER COP that taught the class gave us a whole long schpeal about upholding the spirit of the law rather than the strict letter and how he'd often given out warnings in lieu of tickets if he felt that the person was legitimately sorry and the spirit had been conveyed adequately etc. I think what has people up in arms is the extreme position that the law enforcement is taking in terms of letter of the law. I realize that it's illegal to drink underage, but I think some of these instances seem like deliberate targeting of those that are well within decent decorum.

Do I think students have a right to complain if they're caught underage drinking while at a tailgate wide shotgun? No, that's just asinine. But it seems like this incident, and the ones that are being protested are not in that vein. I do think that they should either be upfront about their targeting practices and drop the safety nonsense OR actually look after the safety of those tailgaiting.

-Alex Choperena '09

2:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

IC 7.1-5-7-7
Illegal possession
Sec. 7. (a) It is a Class C misdemeanor for a minor to knowingly:
(1) possess an alcoholic beverage;
(2) consume it; or
(3) transport it on a public highway when not accompanied by
at least one (1) of his parents or guardians.
(b) If a minor is found to have violated subsection (a) while
operating a motor vehicle, the court may order the minor's driver's
license suspended for up to one (1) year. However, if the minor is
less than eighteen (18) years of age, the court shall order the minor's
driver's license suspended for at least sixty (60) days.
(c) The court shall deliver any order suspending the minor's
driver's license under this section to the bureau of motor vehicles,
which shall suspend the minor's driver's license under IC 9-24-18-12
for the period ordered by the court.
(Formerly: Acts 1973, P.L.55, SEC.1.) As amended by Acts 1978,
P.L.2, SEC.710; Acts 1982, P.L.69, SEC.15; P.L.53-1994, SEC.1.

4:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:11

You do realize that per a strict reading of Indiana law, Sacred Heart and any other Catholic Church in Indiana could be busted for supplying alcohol to a minor when they give Communion in both forms and ticket everyone under the ager of 21 who does so. You will note there is no exception for religious services. Just think of the revenue they could generate on First Communion days.

9:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are always exemptions for religious ceremonies.

12:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @ 12:11 PM:

Incorrect. By the time any minor comes into possession of, or consumes the "wine", per transubstantiation, it has become the Blood of Christ--well beyond the scope of the Indiana statutes.

You call yourself a Catholic???

12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Want to have some fun? If the cops are looking for people who "draw attention to themselves" why not do it at a dry tailgater? Wouldn;t it be fun to have cops waste a ton of time investigating and breathalyzing tons of people who have consumed nothing?

Underage drinking is illegal. But South Bend has much bigger problems. You don't put a band-aid on a splinter and ignore a bullet hole. The town probably stands to generate a tremendous revenue off the backs of relatively docile college students. They are being taken advantage of...

1:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well i'll start out as the first person to say that you all are doing nothing but get the ball rolling on a total ban of alchohol at tailgating, you want rid of police, excise, etc., that's what it will take. so go ahead continue to smear the ND name cause that is exactly what is going to happen, by the way ND is not in South Bend.

2:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

2:10,

Interesting point that I hadn't considered. The crackdown is due to the fact that they have seen students and others acting irresponsibly at higher levels.

The more responsibility we show, the less of a crackdown people will experience.

2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @ 2:10 PM:

Yeah, that was real original.
Haven't had any cowards sound off on the board yet--so thank you for the refreshing contribution.

Everyone should just refrain from drinking, tailgating, partying--forget tradition, and just pray the rosary several times before each game.

The amended Notre Dame spirit--bow down to the bullies; avoid the confrontation at all costs!

2:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

vIt's time for some enterprising person to start printing the t-shirts: "Put Bill Kirk out of work!" Based on personal interactions (of a non-disciplinary nature) the guy was a swine in the 90s and continues to be so now...

2:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:29, Indiana law does not allow have a religious exception written into it.

And Anonymous 12:57, transubstantiation works as far as the Church is concerned, but would the Excise Police see it the same way? And during Mass, minors do take possession of alchol. When the gifts are presented, the celebrant hands the wine to the alter server. It has not yet been transformed; ergo, possession by a minor. Obviously any one who tried busting such a circumstance would be committing career suicide, but the fact is they could. If they will arrest someone who tests at 0.00, they will arrest anyone.

3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon (John?) 3:16:

T'was posted tongue in cheek. I realize the "transubstantiation" defense might not carry a whole lotta' weight with a Judge; but then, a jury chock full of Cats...fa'getta abot it; you're skat'n!

3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow..I hope you are all not ND grads or present students, the ignorance is overwhelming. There is this document called the U.S. Constitution that deals with a little issue called "Separation of Church and State." Maybe some of you have heard that phrase before. I know my 4th grader has. By the way have any of you geniuses ever thought about just walking up to one of the Cops, preferably while they are not involved with checking someone, to ask questions about what they do and how they go about it. You know get their opinion on things. They are people just like the rest of you but they seem to have a job no one appreciates unless they're running into a problem everyone else is running away from. If you do this in a non-confrontational manner, you know..be nice, you might be surprised at the sincerity and friendliness you get in return. I do know this..if you become confrontational and start playing games with them you're not gonna win.

3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon @ 3:33 PM

"There is this document called the U.S. Constitution that deals with a little issue called "Separation of Church and State."

Please enlighten us as to how the prohibition against CONGRESS establishing a religion, or passing any laws restricting the practice of religion, has anything at all to do with police selectively enforcing restrictions on alcohol consumption?

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The term "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the Constitution. The actual words are from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote 200+ years ago. Yes, the courts have adopted it as doctrine, but those words are not actually in the Constitution.

And illegal activity is not covered. Druggies have tried defend their right to smoke pot by claiming it was part of their religion. Didn't work. Multiple wives haven't gone too far either.

4:28 PM  
Blogger Bret said...

Joe 9:29 pm...I seriously hope you read this because you obviously can't comprehend the well-rounded nature of the Notre Dame student. First off, "eat shit and kill yourself" is a phrase from a movie that you probobly never saw because you live a very lame life.

Secondly, my parents are proud of me. In addition to winning bengal bouts, walking onto the football team, and having one hell of a good time at school, I was also a valedictorian candidate and majored in chemical engineering. I know what I am talking about when it comes to the situation at Notre Dame. I have seen things first hand. Next time, don't attack someone unless you are sure they can not back themselves up. I assume you are either:

a. A Townie (one who originates from South Bend)

b. A South Bend cop (may fall under case a. as well)

c. Bill Kirk (a lifeless body sent by satan to suck the fun out of Notre Dame)

d. A douchebag (all responses must include d.)

10:03 PM  
Blogger wsmitheGH said...

It is so easy to get away with underage drinking while tailgating, they mine as will permit it!

Notre Dame Rentals at GamedayHousing.com!

2:21 PM  

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