Someone should remind Arsene what the offiside rules are
by htownnd (2016-12-19 10:25:51)

His post match rant was pretty fascinating.

The first Sane goal was close, but definitely not a miscarriage of justice.

He was just flat out wrong on the second one.

Always someone else's fault.



Correct on both counts
by wcnitz  (2016-12-19 10:38:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Was Sane offside on the first goal? Possibly, but no camera angle shows the angle that the AR had on the touchline. And if there is ANY doubt, the flag should not be raised. Period. His arm was clearly off, but that isn't relevant. Was his foot? That is questionable at best.

The second could be argued as offside in lower levels of soccer if the keeper was clearly distracted by the player lunging at the ball, but at that level, no. His line of sight was not blocked and while an attempt was made to play the ball, it does not necessarily indicate an impact on the run of play.


For the second, the player made a play on the ball. It ...
by Rocksteady74  (2016-12-21 21:59:02)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

... is called quite frequently. I can't fault Arsenal for complaining about that one.


It is always a subjective decision
by wcnitz  (2016-12-22 17:53:24)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The language has been clarified (I believe the latest IFAB clarified it further) but it's still quite open to interpretation. See the italicized bits, which could be applied in this situation but could also be interpreted to NOT apply in this situation.

Clauses:
*preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent's line of vision
*challenging an opponent for the ball
*clearly attempting to play the ball which is close to him when this action impacts an opponent
*making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball


Sane is pretty clearly offsides on the first goal.
by ndroman21  (2016-12-21 12:07:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

His arm does not matter, but the stills show that his foot is clearly past the last defenders' foot and his head is clearly past the last defenders' head.

That being said, it's easy to look at a still and not so easy in real-time, but that doesn't change the basic fact that he was offside.


I'm not sold either way on the last one. It's pretty much up to your interpretation of whether Cech was impacted by the lunge at the ball. Personally, I think that an attempt to make a play on the ball should make someone offsides as that's easier to interpret, but that's not the law.

I'm not unbiased, either, as an Arsenal fan and former goalie.


It's easy for you to say that's offside
by wcnitz  (2016-12-22 17:47:58)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

That's still not the same angle that the linesman saw.

My point here is that in this case, we are literally talking less than a few inches of offside - possibly - and if an AR has any doubt, they should not raise the flag.

The USSF has down their own studies on this, and determined that when offside is called incorrectly, it is something like 80% wrong against the offense and only 20% the other way.

On the second, I wouldn't call that at any high level unless there was a touch or Czech as clearly hampered by the attempt, which I think the video clearly shows he was not.


I think I said exactly that..
by ndroman21  (2016-12-22 18:29:49)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...but he was still offsides, and it's not absurd for Wenger to be upset about it, especially considering a borderline offsides call that went against Arsenal in the 1st half.


Pretty clearly
by HTownND  (2016-12-21 14:23:51)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

In real time, that's pretty bang bang when you look at the stills.

It wasn't glaring, and definitely not something that was so egregious that it was uncalled. Something that close doesn't get called a lot of the time, that's part and parcel in judgement calls. The idea that something so bang bang is clearly offside is the problem. It wasn't clear, it was about as close as you see, and in the judgement of the ref, who was in perfect position, he wasn't. That's not a hill anyone should be willing to die on.

As for the latter, having watched it again, Cech was having trouble with that ball and the angle before Silva lunged at it.





Silva didn't come in until after the ball had left Sterling's foot, and if you follow Cech's head, it's hard to argue that Silva impacted him. At best Silva got a glimpse out of the corner of his eye, but that ball was going in, whether Silva lunged or not. He was clearly beat, it was an absurd angle and great ball from Sterling. There is a replay (I'll go searching) that shows the angle from behind Sterling where you can track his eyes/head. (see the link from 1:55 on, Cech wasn't slow to get to his left because of Silva, it just flat out beat him because it was an absurd angle and great shot)


I think we're agreeing.
by ndroman21  (2016-12-21 16:53:31)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

The first one is a tough call, but it's there to be made. I've stipulated that it's not easy, but that's why you're the in the Premier league.

.

If you're really expecting Wenger (or any manager for that matter) to not be upset by that, I think your expectations are frankly ridiculous.

The 2nd one is really just a judgement call and I think you're technically correct on reviewing the reverse angle. I just don't like the rule as a former goalkeeper.

I guarantee Cech knew Silva was there, whether his vision was affected or not. To me, that's gaining an advantage, but FIFA disagrees. Oh well.






On the first point
by HTownND  (2016-12-21 17:25:47)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

Yes, I do think he should STFU. How many of those calls has Arsene benefited from in his career? Those type of bang bang calls tend to balance out when it's all said and done. It wasn't an egregious miscarriage of justice. I think he was offside, but not so egregiously so that it's an obvious call or that I'd call him clearly offsides. It was a bang bang judgement call.

I'm not saying he should be happy about it, but most managers chalk those things up to the bang bang nature of it, and don't waste precious time and energy bitching about it.


You mean like this?
by ndroman21  (2016-12-21 17:56:53)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

You have different standards for incidents involving your teams than you do for incidents involving their rivals.


Sure
by HTownND  (2016-12-22 10:37:36)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

But there's a difference between a bang bang offside call and a missed foul call no?

Managers, including Arsene, always bitch about the latter. But the former, you don't see a ton of bitching about, because that tends to even out.


I think missed offsides calls can be even more important...
by ndroman21  (2016-12-22 12:30:22)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

...as they often and, in this case, lead directly to goals. A foul call outside of the area leads to a goal what? 5% of the time? 10%?

The foul call can be just as controversial and bang/bang as an offsides call. I would think that most managers would bitch about either circumstance, but I rarely pay attention to managers' postgame comments, even Wenger's.

Edit: There was also a similar bang/bang offsides call against Arsenal in the 1st half. So part of the problem was that it didn't even out.




Yep
by htownnd  (2016-12-19 10:47:43)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

I found our old keepers comments on the second one a bit disappointing as well.

He flashed in, but the idea that he didn't see the ball at all because of Silva doesn't hold up under any review. He was tracking Sterling and the ball the whole time. Silva flashed in at the end, but was pretty far off to his right as the play was developing.


If I can see the keeper getting distracted by it, I call it
by wcnitz  (2016-12-19 10:54:17)     cannot delete  |  Edit  |  Return to Board  |  Ignore Poster   |   Highlight Poster  |   Reply to Post

In this case the player and the ball were in the same place, and this isn't U15 select play. Czech wasn't at a disadvantage from the lunge.

I've called this in cases where the shot came in from a steeper angle, and the offside player was just a few feet in front of the keeper. And when the shot was taken, the keeper's eyes were on the player in front of them - understandably so, since they expected the pass to go there. That's offside. Catching that is difficult but I have spotted it a couple times and pulled the goal back.