I will wander around until history passes this kidneystone.

Like me, I despised Trump after voting for him the first time that i voted Biden.

But now I despise Biden and the Democrat party so much that I’m considering voting for Trump again, which i find similarly disgusting.

I won’t be surprised at all if Georgia where I live swings back to Blue. Looking forward to the ads to start kicking up again.

This hold your nose and vote for ____ method is terrible.

While you’re predictably getting pummeled, I don’t think your opinion is unique. There isn’t a person I know here in DC that would say it, but friends around the country, at least the veterans and working class, all races by the way, think more like you. They don’t like Trump but he’s a viable alternative.

I had a thought that it feels like 2016 again…just a desire for a radical change in how our Federal government operates.

against Biden that aren’t “Trumpers/MAGAs”. I know that’s hard for some on here to understand but it’s true. Voting for Trump means you must love Trump, fascism, and hate democracy isn’t actually true.

Accept what Trump says he is going to do n You may think Trump is lying about what he intends to do. Given the project 2025 plans I don’t think that is the case but I suppose it is possible. I think we can confidently say a vote for Trump is a vote for tariffs, more isolationism, revenge against perceived enemies, walking away from Ukraine and allowing someone who wishes to be a dictator and has already tried to overturn an election a second term as the head of the nation. I am sure there are a host of other items that can be added to the list.

I can understand folks saying they can’t vote for Biden but you don’t get ignore all the things Trump has done and intends to do if you vote for him.

To say you'd sit out like El K is one thing, but to say you'd go back to Trump? Yikes.

I’ve never voted for him and I never will (and I’m a Republican). Even if he brought Haley on as his VP (which won’t happen), I would have trouble pulling the lever for Trump. He stands for so much that I find despicable, that I’d rather write in for someone else (I’m assuming Haley) than vote for him or for Biden (although I find myself agreeing more with Biden these days than the Republican Party on things like Israel and Ukraine).

his border policy is inexplicable. Someone explain why he isn’t shutting down the border? And they were touting that illegal crossings were down just lying and working against securing the border and undermining the efforts in Texas. He could secure the border but he’s chose not to—that’s a Trump policy.


I agree Trump is a piece of shit but Biden is despicable example of the career politician that has been in Washington for too long. And I know Mitch and all the Republicans have been there too long too.

Biden is the big puppet in charge and I refuse to vote for him and endorse another 4 years

If Biden loses maybe the Democrats will put up someone not in their 80s next time and have an easy win over Trump. But nope, let’s keep the geezer in power for another 4 years

And I also know the Republicans could put pretty much anyone other than Trump and it would be an easy win, and I hate that he is going to be the primary winner.

I totally get that people look at Trump and know that he is a terrible person and refuse to vote for him.

oppose him because “he’s a terrible person”?

You're going to have to clarify. That's been pretty good.

I won’t vote for him again. I also didn’t mean to pile on in this thread. You’re a smart guy and you have your reasons for voting for whomever you ultimately choose. It will serve the Democrats right if Trump beats the corpse they’ve nominated. This is like the watching UM-OSU - I can’t win and will root for a meteor (third party candidate).

That apparently put him on par with Trump for you.

who has no regard whatsoever for the Constitution of the United States.

I don't understand how anyone with any intelligence could do such a thing.

Leave the ballot blank. Vote for a third party. Vote for Mickey Mouse.

What the bloody F is the reason you'd vote for Trump? Not only is he a blowhard grifting traitor, he was an incompetent president.

I've noticed that a few times and I'm starting to think that it isn't a coincidence.

Anyone who uses that term is a chucklheaded dipshit.

Their normal vocabulary of DemonRat and sheeple would be frowned upon here.

It was a couple years ago that someone called me out on it here (might have been you or Mollie). I’ve been pretty conscious of it since, even if I wanted to make fun that seems like a lazy approach.

Making fun of both parties should be fair game though. I haven’t seen much they wouldn’t justify to stay in power.

It dates back to the 1964 Republican Convention.

Yes, it's stupid.

you and others due and giving them their desired reactions they'd stop using it. It's dumb and should be ignored at most. However, it seems to illicit a reaction every time it's done, thus potentially supporting the theory that it's taken as an insult by the Democrats in the Democratic party.

Democrat is a noun.

I'm reacting to the use of it on this board because it's stupid and juvenile.

I had just noticed and was asking about it.

shocking of course that it's basically immature name calling.

are several posters back here who will take the bait every time. I don't agree with baiting them but no one is forcing them to respond.

I don’t even get how it’s supposed to be insulting. Just because it’s not the correct word?

people for some reason, which for some people is the intended outcome. I don't get it either.

It's a dumb insult "hur hur you're not democratic".

We're better than this type of language here. "You reacted to it" is sort of a thin excuse.

In my mind, if you're a member of the Democratic party, you're a Democrat.

I've read that word in regular media for years.

Now it's an insult? It's dumb if it is, but I don't see it.

If I didn't know you better, I'd worry you were being a touch willfully obtuse here. (I say this playfully!)

Ok, so to the basics:

- Democrats combine to form the Democratic Party, or the "Dems"

- Republicans combine to form the Republican Party, or the "GOP" (which is about whimsy folksy as one gets these days, but I digress)

I wouldn't say "Republic Party" any more than "Democrat Party". It's not the name, right?

Yet some of the pettier elements in MAGA have seen fit to use the name "Democrat Party" because in their minds it's a way of insulting them by suggesting they are not "democratic" or something. It's juvenile and stupid.

I think it's perfectly fine to name your party whatever you want. I sort of roll my eyes at the "Freedom Caucus" but I'm not going to make nicknames for them. I don't even indulge in "Gym Jordan", as much as he deserves it.

I agree using the phrase "Democrat Party" makes no sense, and if it's supposed to be an insult, it's an incredibly dumb one.

correction The Democratic Party.

I mean this seriously, I do not think much has really changed in the last 3 years, so not sure what would move needle much from 2020. If anything I would think the economy has improved.

He didn't cause a lot of damage, mainly because he couldn't get any transformative legislation through Congress aside from the CHIPS act, which I am in huge favor of due to the outsized risk concentrating chip manufacturing in Taiwan.

Where he did cause damage was the last stimulus. He pulled the trigger way too soon and threw gasoline on the inflation fire. I have no evidence to prove this, but I expect inflation is going down just as much because the lower --> middle class has burned through all their stimulus cash and have run out of credit card headroom.

He's in clear cognitive decline, and I worry what our adversaries will exploit over the next 4 years. I was genuinely worried last week that the AT&T network outage was a hack...it's only a matter of time.

One item no one is talking about -- what's going to happen when the Trump tax cuts expire at end of 2025. Likely we will have a split administration one way or the other, so neither party will get their way.

How would you feel if GDP growth were halved coming out of the Covid recovery and unemployment rates were several points higher?

You’re describing GDP and unemployment rates closer to historical norms. I’d take that if it meant showing some restraint in allowing the economy to react and absorb the previous stimuli combined with the adoption of widespread vaccines.

was the eight years of economic bashing that Obama received from the GOP because he didn't fix the shitshow that he inherited from them fast enough.

In the rearview mirror, the ARP likely wasn't need at the scale it was passed on, but we were just on the cusp of Covid vaccine availability, so, did we really know? He went with better safe than sorry. I can live with that.

And I do think that some of the quick reduction in unemployment and consumer spending that stimulated GDP growth came along with the uptick in inflation.

last stimulus? Was that the Inflation Reduction Act? I've seen no evidence to support your claim. It can also be argued that those directly contributed to inflation, and higher interest rates.

but what's the alternative if the choices are terrible?

level of discourse. Some responded with predictable outrage we see here daily, others actually tried to engage and understand.

say they cant support Biden and will not vote, will write in someone or vote third party. I disagree with those who believe Biden poses the same threat to our nation as another Trump term does so I think choosing those routes is playing with fire depending partiularly if you live in a state where your vote will matter.

What I cant understand is longtime members of the Republican party that believed in what Reagan espoused supporting what Trump is selling, protectionism, isolationism, authoritarianism, retribution against enemies.

Student loan forgiveness aside the policies Biden is proposing or enacted probably align closer to the Republican party of Reagan than anythign Trump is proposing.

it as it's clear you've given it real thought and have spent time on it. And I think it's a starting point for a reasonable debate. What I can't respect are some of the knee-jerk responses to immediately discount what a poster says because of a disagreement, and then an insult or lecture to follow. I think inquisitive or counter points are a better approach, and I can say personally I've had my mind changed or at least tempered based on a few such interactions.

do that although I am sure at times I have failed.

I sometimes try to drill down to what people think because I feel people often disagree with the broad strokes but when you start to drill down you often find some agreements that can be the start of agreement.

I dont remember where I heard the interview but somewhere in the last few days heard part of an interview with an author who wrote on the topic of hwo to address conspiracy theories. The point was dont just tell people they are wrong but if ask why they care about that item you can start to have a conversation about what underlies it.

I am a liberal Democrat. That does not mean I think government is the answer to every problem but I also dont believe the left to its own devices the free market will solve all problems either. Most government regs come about because of a problem the free market created. A nationally renowned bank regulatory lawyer made that point to a bunch of bankers at a conference when he said rather than complain about regs why dont you stop your competitors who were screwing their customers that led to the reg being written.

We can all say there is too much regulation but would we really want to invest in a world without the SEC or buy food or medicines from companies with no FDA to name a few items.

Conservative but am not one of those who feels there's no place for regulations or government in general. I personally think we've gone far beyond what the founders wanted in terms of the size and power of the federal government, but can recognize where it is absolutely necessary. Entirely unfettered free markets also ends up with plenty of negative externalities. Many elements of Plato's Republic resonate with me. I also wasn't lumping you in with the bucket of my post, I think you're generally fair although I tend to disagree with you a good amount.

where we both walked away with things to think about which is a good thing.

I hear what you say about the founders original views in terms of power and size but I also think the world has developed into a much more complex interconnected society than they ever could have imagined. I think that comexity and interconnectedness requies a stronger national government.

don't name call or belittle, and seem to come at these issues with a measured approach. You have a fair point about the world evolving and needing a stronger federal government, and I see merit in that point. I do feel that we've grown more than that mandate though. Over the weekend I wanted to do some analysis on population growth vs. government employee and spending growth, but ran out of time. Perhaps that data already exists and I just haven't seen it. I also am willing to admit that that doesn't tell the entire story, as we've had entirely new industries created in the last several decades that aren't necessarily related to population growth, so it would require some kind of multi-variate analysis to prove my point. Perhaps the data won't even prove my point, but I have become conscious of the creep, particularly after a lot of the agencies and regulations were created after 9/11 that I feel haven't really made us that much more safe.

Anyway, I'm out for the night, but cheers, and thanks for your perspective as always!

Lectures take us further down the path of polarization. They make the lecturer feel good, but do nothing to change minds.

A better response (which - to this board's credit - several have offered) would be a genuine and straightforward query about what specifically Biden has done to make him more despicable than Trump.

I wish more conservatives would listen to Liz Cheney when she says (I'm paraphrasing) the country can survive bad policies in a four or even eight year administration. It can't survive dictatorship.

What I truly don't understand is people who say that they liked Trump's policies, when any other Republican from Mitt Romney to Ron DeSantis or even Ted Cruz would have gotten everything done that Trump did - from reversal of Roe v. Wade to tax cuts to you name it - and much more, including a better border policy, not needlessly pissing off our NATO allies, not putting in high tariffs that were against Republican policy since the Eisenhower administration, not releasing 5,000 Taliban prisoners for absolutely nothing in return, and on and on. If he even had an honest bone in his body, the guy flat out isn't competent at anything other than self-promotion. And if he gets elected again, he's not appointing people like Rex Tillerson, John Kelly, HR McMaster or even Mike Pompeo or Bill Barr.

homelessness. We are Reagan Republicans. Free trade, shrink government a bit, compromise to get 80% of what we want, that kind of thing. Our party is gone. It is unlikely to come back.

Note here that I do not blame Trump for MAGA, I blame MAGA for Trump. He would not have been nominated or elected without them. They would not have supported him had he not shown them anger that they felt they shared.

Trump will eventually go away, one way or another. MAGA will not.

Wouldn't that hit enough checkboxes to have a fighting chance in the election?

I'd like to elect an independent thinker or at least one who purports to be one. Unfortunately once the candidate is selected by the Rep or Dem, they are forced to go down the rabbit hole of whatever the extreme of the party wants them to otherwise they're a "fake candidate." RINO seems to be the popular term for the republicans (not sure what it is for Dems).

Sadly Trump is honestly probably that pro-choice, pro-gun type candidate if you put him on truth serum but he knows that to be the "deity" he wants to be, he needed to be pro-life and elect Supreme Court Justices that please that faction of people.

I still lean Republican and honestly liked a lot of the policies that Trump was doing but I just hate him so much and will go a 3rd election without writing his name down...I just don't want to leave it blank for the 2nd time in the last 3 elections.

I realize the party also has a number of policies related to deceimjnalization of things like drugs or prostitution you may not like but that would likely be true if any party.

Without studying data to analyze this idea my instinct is the Venn Diagram of pro gun pro choice members of the two parties is likely not big enough to win any elections.

particularly as it relates to destroying the state of Israel. The abortion debate is so polarized that there isn't room in the Republican party if you're pro-choice and there isn't room in the Democratic party if you're pro-life.

with the entire right or left wing platform or we don't want anything to do with you and by the way you're stupid and don't know anything.

I don't want my life to be defined by a political party but thanks to the news stations, lots of people have chosen that path.

The number of people who choose to decorate the outside of their home with Republican paraphernalia is just staggering to me. Whether it's "Trump 2024", "My Governor is an Idiot" or the utterly appalling "Fuck Joe Biden" I just don't understand why people are so hung up on the election.

A whole lot of self-described independents aren't really independent. I do think "choose your news" television is a large part of the problem, maybe the biggest cause. And social media has made it even worse.

In better days when television news was largely down the middle reporting, you could have a Democratic landslide and then only 8 years later a Republican landslide, with a very close election in between. That's a good thing, in my opinion. Today that would be downright impossible.

Are there any Democrats in elected office espousing those views?

Are there Democrats in office espousing the view that there's no room in their party for pro-lifers? Yes. And that's absolutely where the party is today.

Are there Democrats in office espousing the view that Joe is enabling "genocide" and that Israel shouldn't exist? Yes. They're very upfront about the genocide part, not sure why this is even up for debate. Of course they use their euphemisms about Israel that I'm sure will be defended.

They're the lunatic fringe of the Democratic Party. But they're not in control of the party, unlike the Republican Party, where the lunatic fringe is in control of the House of Representatives and many other places as well.

elected officials espousing those policies or beliefs. Many in his administration, although not elected, feel the same way as the squad. And if you look at polling in the Democratic party it does align with a lot of the youth in the party. I answered his question directly. There are few, if any, elected Democrats who could be considered pro-life. Next question.

I sure can't see any in the Cabinet. Do you have some names?

The youth of the Democratic Party has been farther left than the party at large since time immemorial, then they get older and get out of school and find jobs.

I'm not defending the lack of pro-life elected Democrats at all. Primarily from a moral standpoint but also from a political standpoint. For the first ten years after the Roe v Wade decision there was no litmus test in either party. You even had a Republican first lady (Betty Ford) who was in favor of it publicly, and then the Carter administration stopping federal funding of abortions. In fact abortion wasn't even an issue in either the '72 or '76 elections. You had pro-life Democrats in Congress with names like Dick Gephardt and Al Gore. There was one in the Senate named Joe Biden.

In the 80's, unfortunately, and American politics ended up more and more polarized to the point of that no one with an opinion that deviates from that particular party line has a hope of getting elected and it crowds out everything else. It's been absolute poison.

about staffers writing letters, staging/planning walkouts, etc. due to Biden's position on the war.

I agree on your points about the abortion debate. One of my hopes with the overturning of RvW and moving it back to the states is that it would open up the possibility of more nuanced positions on the issue, as the issue will get more attention at the state level and laws can be passed that impact the issue more locally than just a monolithic policy at the federal level. Who knows if it will happen or not.

discourse over the last 30-35 years, the one that says the Democratic party has moved as far to the left as the Republican party has to the right is the one that confounds me the most.

As you note, the far left nutbars of the Democratic party has no control over it. They barely move the needle. But the other party cannot say that. Yet to hear many talk, that reality is light years from what they believe. Far left fringe politicians like Bernie Sanders and Ilhan Omar are not running the Democratic party. A literal insurrectionist authoritarian with many parallels to fascists from the early 20th century is the standard bearer for the Republican party.

The never-Trump normal conservatives out there need to make a clean break from the Republican party. A full, clean break and start over. Think of it as the 21st century version of the Whigs.

And the Whig analogy is apt. The lunatic fringe of that party became the Know-Nothings. The normal former Whigs joined the new Republican Party.

The Trump GOP has morphed into Know-Nothings.

You can still stay home for the general election, if the primary doesn’t produce a positive result for you.

As is the general election for the most part.

I will vote third party yet again this year (for the 6th time in a row) while hoping that someday Ranked Choice Voting will allow for a real 3rd party.