and end up being better than the one we kept? Or any position for that matter.

I am not saying that will happen here, but it certainly could.

I really liked the thought of Kiel being the backup this year.

Which you no doubt know, I'm not trying to correct you or anything. But if you want to draw some parallels... A slight-of-build, athletic quarterback from South Carolina was the presumptive starter in front of a heralded pro-style quarterback, who then transferred because he felt he couldn't get on the field. Hm.

Drawing parallels is really nothing more meaningful than a fan's diversion, though. As Counselor Cross will tell you, analogies tend to be very ineffective because it's far too easy to point out how the situations aren't analogous. Golson is a far better passer than Rice was, and Rice was a far better runner than Golson is. Both basically do/did one well well enough to keep defenses honest on the other, but their strengths are flipped. I believe Graham was well-regarded as a recruit but not at the comparative level of Kiel. I also doubt Kiel will end up at a program anywhere near as notable as Ohio State, where Graham landed (or Michigan, USC, Alabama, LSU, Oklahoma, etc.).

But there were definitely Irish fans gnashing their teeth about how the "central casting" QB transferred because the coach was too stubborn to unseat the smurf who fit his system. That worked out pretty well, though. (Note to Cross: I am not implying that Golson will now win the title next year. Just to be clear.) The backup QB is always the most popular guy on the team.

My ass.

Golson was listed at 6'-0" 185 as a sophomore. He's 12 lbs lighter with 3 years to play.

Zaire is already listed near Rice's graduation height/weight.

Seriously, though, I'm not saying Golson is Rice. He's not. I'm saying that Across impression of Rice as a monster and Golson as a shrimp is not necessarily supported by their listed statistics.

They are not very similar and Tony is a taller/bigger guy by a distinct margin.

I certainly thought he looked bulkier last year than he did coming in.

He was wearing these:



I think they were a gift from Andy. Hope it wasn't an NCAA violation.

shoulders. Strong as an ox.

Golson is 185 like Cash is 185.

However, if Rice wasn't a shrimp by your definition, it seems that Zaire is probably not, either.

Golson still has some work to do in the weight room.

now he has calculated that he won't be given a chance unless Golson is hurt or fails big-time come the fall. If none of this happens, he doesn't want to ride the bench and waste his talent behind Golson. I see the nightmare of Matt LoVecchio leaving and Dillingham being the no. 2 QB with Carlyle Holiday in the role of Golson; I swear, it is almost like 2002 all over again.

Really, I don't blame him any more than I blamed LoVeccio. If Kiel is good, which none of us really know, it would be a waste. The clock is ticking on his eligibility, so if I were him, I'd leave too. He can probably go a lot of places where he can step right in to the QB slot, or at least will be given a chance to show what he can do--apparently something he doesn't see happening at ND, at least not in a real game.

It is absolutely critical that ND get consistently better QB play all season--not just a few games--if 2013 is to be as good or better than 2012. This transfer can only create a bad situation for ND's team. With the transfer, an extra 10 pounds of responsibility and criticality will be put on Golson's shoulders. Rees is a nice guy, but it doesn't give me high hopes of a stellar season in 2013 if he is the best we have as a no. 2 QB. Kelly has to know this too, and it will mean that he will continue to be protective of Golson's health, i.e. he won't let him run very much. So I see us stuck in a rut--where Golson is protected for fear that Rees might have to play. I think 2013 could very well be a groundhog day repeat of 2012, if that good.

As far as I know Kiel hasn't left yet, so maybe Kelly can promise him a chance to play and keep him for another year. Here's hoping so.

... He was the weakest kid on the team. He was mortified when his statuesque competition, Vinny Testaverde, walked onto campus and bench-pressed 325 pounds a bunch of times. Kosar got 185 up just once, with arms shaking. So he went to coach Howard Schnellenberger and, sweating and trying not to tremble, told him he was going to transfer. And now he quotes the old pipe-smoking coach and applies those lessons from nearly three decades ago to today: "Son, I'm not going to lie. It doesn't look good for you. But wherever you go in life, there's competition. The guys who run home to mommy tend to be quitters their whole life."

Kosar won. Won huge. Won the job and the national championship in a flabbergasting upset of Nebraska to begin Miami's unprecedented football run through the next two decades.

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Off the top of my head:

Christian Olson
Lovechio
Zac Kustok
Demetrius Jones
Dayne Crist (sort of)
The guy who ended up at UConn?
It seems like there are a few more that I am forgetting

Also, 4 have switched positions, including Massa on the current team.

And I think that was just scholarship QB's, so he wasn't counting Montana. It's a position that invites a high rate of attrition, but even at that it seems a little excessive. Hopefully we'll get a little stability there going forward, although I expect we'd still see someone transfer every 2 or 3 years.

practice. Unless he is able to get into a school that is on a quarter system, I can't see a reason to sit out the spring and not get reps at any school.

...practice, I would not be giving him any reps, but that is just me. I would save the reps for the guys who are staying.

spring practice to declare I was transferring. He might as well see how the spring plays out.

USC situation. Max Browne probably thought he had a clear shot to beat out whatever was there in the Spring and Fall and now there is a risk that Wittek will beat him out and at least have a chance to win the job while Browne is extremely green. If that happens then Browne is looking at a long wait whereas he may have thought he had a clear shot at starting all foru years.

Things are unpredictable and can't be controlled.

Whenever a player makes a last minute decision to stay close to home as much to appease family as any other reason, it stands to reason that as they develop a little more independence they'll question that decision.

I don't think Kiel's heart was ever set on attending ND, and now that he's had a chance to develop a little bit of a break from Mom and Dad he's better able to make these decisions.

Combine this with the very real possibility of 2-3 more years of backup duty and you can see why he'd transfer.

from his family has anything at all to do with this? Did I miss something?

By all reports he essentially succumbed to family pressure to stay close to home and play for ND. I'm sure a high school student living at home with your parents is far more likely to make decisions that would appease his parents than someone who has now lived away from home for a year.

My primary point is that the decision to attend ND appeared more of a family decision than his decision.

Also agree that it looked to be a family decision last year, but as to which family member (son vs parents) seems unclear. How far away from home his next destination is may be informative, although it's still just another tea leaf for us, I suppose. Seems like a good close knit family. I wish him well.

He has a dream and it appears it would likely remain unfulfilled if he remained at ND. It would be nice if we could hoard talent but sometimes that is unfair to the athletes.

Started out at as an IU commit, then LSU, switched to ND, and now ??? Maybe fourth time is a charm?

ND should be OK in 2013 -- although, I would prefer having someone more athletic than Rees at the backup.

Staff now needs to put more emphasis on getting another QB in the upcoming class.

QB is the toughest position to recruit. Coaches must have fits. You need depth but kids don't want to sit and wait. You usually recruit only one player per year. A player leaves and your depth goes down the toilet. Oy vey.

Gives him a spring to learn offensive system, highlight his skills for a year, transfer again in January to a Div I school and play immediately.

surprise that a 5* QB is making a business decision. I doubt that
he wanted to be the 4th string QB.

I hope he does well wherever he goes

I hate to see this but it looks like he's at the right place at the wrong time. I believe most would like to watch him challenge EG head to head but if he leaves immediately I'd like to see him go back to IU.

Does the name George ring any bells?

Beginning to sound like a rerun.

Do wish Blair would do spring practice and finish the semester - anything could happen.

Rush to judgement?

Gunner Kiel, Tre Roberson, Morgan Newton, James Banks, Clayton Richard, Jay Cutler, Rex Grossman, Rick Mirer, Jeff George.

You got some studs in there. Heck, Clayton Richard is an elite MLB left-handed pitcher.

And that's in the best pitcher's park in baseball.

George is tied for the longest TD pass in NFL history, 99 yards to Bobby Mitchell while with the Skins.

Massa become 5th year possibilities for 2014. The "anybody but Rees " crowd may miss him when he's gone. Time to fire up the Zaire highlights.

Couple of quotes from the Elite 11:

"He has a very live arm, and made some big throws down the field. He showed off an effortless release and spun the ball very well in what was far from ideal conditions."

"I was very impressed with his combination of athleticism and arm strength. Zaire certainly isn’t the biggest quarterback at the star-studded camp, but he was slinging the ball all over the field with good velocity and accuracy."

Ball State, Miami (Ohio), Northern Illinois and Cincinnati. The list speaks for itself, I guess, although I can see how a lot of big-school coaches would be wary of a signing-day decommit who then transferred. Bruce Feldman tweeted that a major AQ coach told him he declined Kiel's interest lately, although without the context provided by actually knowing the coach and school that doesn't mean much.

Very disappointing. I had hoped he'd give it a shot in spring ball to see if he could push Golson, but apparently either playing now or having a clearer path in front of him is his priority. Which is OK, it's his prerogative. Just would've been nice to see what he could do. On the other hand, our program may be at the point where we lose 5-star talent on a semi-regular basis because of a lack of playing time (Lynch and now Kiel). That's a good problem to have, although of course we need to see a stronger correlation to an upward program trend on the field before I'll have more confidence in that being the situation.

Damn. Golson, Rees, Hendrix next year (assuming they'll try everything they can do to redshirt Zaire, who probably isn't physically ready). If the staff knew this was coming, it might explain why they have a lot of interest in another elite QB in the 2014 class, Brandon Dawkins, rather than a position-filler.

He got more PT than most freshman and was set to be a main player on defense as a sophomore. Lynch's issue was geography. South Bend wasn't in Florida.

Keil is a matter of playing time. He's behind a guy with three more years eligibility, and no matter how well he does, it would be hard to jusify benching a kid who lead you to a 12-0 season and a BCS championship game appearance. And there's Malik Zaire right behind him. Gunner wants to play, and for more than just one year, I would assume. He didn't seem unhappy at ND, like Lynch was.

This seems more like a Zach Frazer situation, than an Aaron Lynch (or Demetrius Jones).

I'm not surprised. I am surprised that the list of possible destination schools are not bigger programs. And they ARE close to his home, so maybe he's still not ready to be too far away from the family.

I didn't think through my wording on that too well. Kiel and Lynch definitely aren't fully similar situations; obviously there's at least one common thread, that both decided ND wasn't the best place for them, but beyond that they're pretty different. I think in a sense playing time may have been involved with Lynch, but more as the symptom than the problem. He couldn't play nice in the sandbox, and I think he didn't put too much into learning his play responsibilities on the field (from what I've read, there are hints that he was not the most coachable guy). The staff may have made it clear that if he didn't clean up his act he wasn't going to be a three-down player, which added to distance/weather/baby/etc. led him to leave. But like I said, PT there is the symptom and not the issue.

While it's very early in the Kiel saga here, this looks like a much more cut and dried case of playing time as the simple cause. In any case, whatever was behind their decisions they're just two isolated data points right now. So I'm not ready to say our program is at a place where elite talent transfers because it can't see the field for one reason or another, but we may be headed there.

really wants to be certain he will be the starter he should transfer to I-AA, like Delaware, where I believe he would have no period to sit out.

Flacco, notably, but also Rich Gannon. Of course Flacco fared a bit better, but then his coach wasn't sabotaging the entire team to get back at the owner. Or something like that.

Kiel could easily get Golson'ed if Peterman performs in fall 2013. And Peterman is his year in school.

don't disagree with anything else you say, however.

As good or better than Golson?

The 4 and 5 stars are all highly talented. The 3 stars are all "sleepers". I'm not saying Zaire can't be better than Golson, but I would say that judgment can certainly not be made by comparing HS resumes. Only when they actually play do you get to see the flaws. Golson has set what his floor will be, and it's pretty good. My main fear with him, as others have stated, is his ability to withstand injury.

Golson was/is a combination of Charlie Ward/Randall Cunningham/Russell Wilson and all other great African American qbs through the years (smaller/younger Warren Moon). Zaire cannot be that good, can he?

Now, being serious for a moment, I am sure he is a good player and a good prospect otherwise ND wouldn't have recruited him. That said, I would doubt that he'll be ready to take meaningful snaps in a full version of this offense anytime soon.

...who could never hope to see any receiver between the hash marks, much less get him the ball, considering he doesn't even use the laces.

It seemed like he had the reported skills and confidence to challenge Golson this year. Hope he reconsiders.

Not quite a two-headed QB system like Kelly had a Cincinnati, but fairly close.

because Rees is #2, then I'm mad.

Rees, you served your school, thank you, but bye. We must focus on the future. I have a hard time believing that Kiel would not beat Rees for arm strength and accuracy in April.

Kiel was a huge get, goofy as his commitment process was. If he's a sham, then oh well. But if he was squelched out of loyalty to Rees, that's a program-inhibiting move.

Rees is not the guy. He had more than a fair shot of proving he is. The team must move on.

Kiel wants to start. The issue is sitting behind Golson, not Rees.

It's not even spring ball yet, for crying out loud. Do you really think that Kelly wasn't going to give him a fair shot to be the backup QB next season?

Kiel was a big signing but his recruiting process lends some clues as to some potential issues.

If he didn't even want to compete for the starting spot and/or top backup and wouldn't even go through spring practice I have a hard time finding fault with anything Rees or Kelly did or didn't do.

This doesn't mean that it doesn't suck, because it does. But Rees has been a good soldier and deserves a bit more than "thank you but bye." Now, maybe he even deserves better than what I said below (something along the lines of "I hope he never plays except in a blowout"). That said, he certainly deserves a hell of a lot more than a kid that wasn't even willing to stick it out and compete.

If he is as talented as advertised, and, more importantly, as talented as he apparently believes he is, Kiel will want an opportuity to play more than one season of college ball. NFL teams typically place a higher value on multi-year starters due to the wealth of game experience, as I'm sure you know. Sitting behind Golson who has three years of eligibility left may be something he does not want to risk. If Kiel doesn't leave now, the strategy of starting over somewhere else pays him diminishing returns going forward.

When he signed I thought it was great...but I always wondered why he didn't sign at IU where he'd be the big dog right away and could plan an early exit.

"now" indicates a lack of desire to compete and "three months from now" indicates what you observe.

Who knows.

but I would imagine that "what he has been told" has more to do with Zaire and Golson and little (if anything) to do with Rees.

Hey coach, is the QB position open for competition? If I prove I' m better, can I win the job?

No.

These quotes are from a discussion with Eric Hansen before Kiel told Kelly he was transferring, in response to a question about Kiel-to-transfer rumors (EDIT: added a link to the article). Yes, sure, words are just words, but aside from Tommy Rees last year, given Kelly's history of having a quick hook for QB's if he's unsatisified with their performance makes me inclined to believe him. To be clear, if Kiel wants immediate playing time I don't have a problem with him transferring, and I also don't have a problem with what Kelly says below.

"It will all shake itself out this spring," he said. "And I say that because (Kiel) really hasn't been given an opportunity. He came in as an early enrollee and had the spring to just run around there with very little knowledge base of the college game and understanding protections. He just did things because he's a big, strong athlete.

"We gave him a little bit of a sniff of it in preseason camp, but not a lot really, quite frankly, because again there was a learning curve there and we needed to hit the ground running. So this spring is going to be, quite frankly, his opportunity to show himself.

"So he may transfer at the end of spring, He may be the starter at the end of spring. I think the question is fair, but I really couldn't tell you how to answer those questions other than this spring will definitely determine his place within the program."

...

Kelly talked Thursday about his philosophy of competition among QBs when asked how he manages egos and expectations, giving the revolving door at the position before his arrival.

"I don't know what happened before we got here," he said. "I know what I laid down within the program about expectations and the parameters for all positions, not just quarterback -- left tackle, guard. And I'm going to recruit somebody to beat you out. And they know that coming in.

"So if you're a quarterback and you don't think I'm going to bring in Malik Zaire to beat you out, then you need to transfer. I do it in the right way. I'm not saying it's a callous, cold way of doing it, but my job is to continue to bring in the best fits for Notre Dame, both on and off the field. So if you're a bit uneasy about the situation, then I welcome your transfer.

"I've done it since I've been at Grand Valley (State) that way -- try to continue that competition within the ranks, because the guys that crack are the ones you want to crack. [EDIT #2: I think it's worth noting here that Kelly said this before Kiel told him the news - it's not a petulant response to the transfer, but a straight statement of his philosophy.] I can tell you if the program's humming and it's doing it the right way, you're going to have some transfers, because you're building competition within the ranks. And it's always going to be that way."

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"Hey coach, enough of the open competition BS. Am I going to get a chance to show my stuff against Golson or will I have to share snaps with guys like Hendrix and Zaire?"

"Open competition."

I can't say that I blame Kiel. At quarterback playing time is paramount. Sure, Kelly can say that the best player will play. However, experience is a big part of that evaluation. It was doubtful that Kiel was going to beat out Golson. Tommy is the perfect fill-in guy. That leaves Kiel hoping for Golson to have a significant injury. That's a tough way to remain positive.

That Kelly adamantly started a brand new starter over a guy with 16 games of starting experience., granted the incumbent was suspended for the first game.

Golson, Rees, Hendrix, Kiel, Zaire?

"Redshirt sophomore Andrew Hendrix was ahead of Kiel on the depth chart last year as well, and Notre Dame welcomed in another quarterback this semester in early enrollee Malik Zaire."

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If so, that quote was nonsense.

I the answer's no, then the quote is nonsense.

From Eric Hansen article

"It will all shake itself out this spring," he (KELLY) said. "And I say that because (Kiel) really hasn't been given an opportunity. He came in as an early enrollee and had the spring to just run around there with very little knowledge base of the college game and understanding protections. He just did things because he's a big, strong athlete.

"We gave him a little bit of a sniff of it in preseason camp, but not a lot really, quite frankly, because again there was a learning curve there and we needed to hit the ground running. So this spring is going to be, quite frankly, his opportunity to show himself.

"So he may transfer at the end of spring, He may be the starter at the end of spring. I think the question is fair, but I really couldn't tell you how to answer those questions other than this spring will definitely determine his place within the program."

Of course, this doesn't mean he said the same thing to Kiel. But the scenario you posit above is pretty unlikely. Kiel may have felt he had no chance to win, for whatever reason.

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You honestly believe any coach would say that? Jesus, you will stop at nothing to further your agenda.

Jack Handy would be proud.

however, the initial post I responded to in this thread was about Rees, not about that type of comment.

I doubt Rees is favored to win the starting job right now.

I don't disagree with your implied assessment of his valuable spot performances under pressure last season, but he's not able to sustain that level consistently. He's clearly not the future and the point is well taken that if Kiel is as good as advertised Rees should be taking a back seat to him.

At the same time that spot needs to be earned and it's a shame that Kiel didn't want to compete for it.

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Otherwise, we'd be fooked.

At some point, it's going to land on the wrong chamber.

that said, I hope he never has to play again unless it's in a major blowout.

But honestly having talented players transfer from the program because - and this is an educated guess - he is blocked by other talented players is a sign of becoming a good program. It happens and I wish him well.

At virtually every other position, there are enough snaps to keep a talented second stringer happy and engaged, but that's just not the nature of the QB position.

This article will have to be revised

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-all joking aside, why now? Why not after Spring Ball? I can't imagine Kelly has given anything to Golson at least verbally. Oh well.

at his new school. He'll still have to sit out another year though.

today or before spring ball? The way more likely scenario is that he will finish the semester and then transfer.

a mid semester transfer, that is.

Perhaps if he transfers to a school on the quarter system.

for spring practice. He probably realizes that Kelly is stuck on Golson. Too bad. I see another seasson with games like last year only we don't win 12.

I simply don't get your "too bad" attitude. It boggles my mind how people could watch Golson last year as a first year starter and not be absolutely giddy about the next 2-3 years.

his peak. If Kelly lets him run more then maybe not.

our bacon against Pitt but he had plenty of crappy decisions and plays in several other games. If the Kiel kid is anywhere close to his hype he should have had a decent shot of overtaking Golson. Kiel's departure is a puzzling development to me. And thus far, I haven't been wowed by Kelly's qb development performance.

I'm down on his backups and our lack of depth

This would be a total disaster if we didn't have Rees to at least give us a ray of hope if Golson goes down. It would be like only having Pat Dillingham otherwise.

I think Kelly now has to change strategies with the FR QB and he has to get him into games this year because Rees is gone in 2014 and we can't go into that year with our #2 never having seen the field.

I can't say I am shocked by the transfer. I really couldn't get my mind wrapped around him staying once it became clear Golson was above average and has 3 more years left. It is hard to tell a 5 star he has to hope the starter gets injured to have any real hope of playing more than 1 year.

Theres a big difference between the chance to play for 1 year or 2 years if you're unable to supplant the starter.

As long as we recruit a highly ranked QB every year (and we should absolutely do so) transfers are going to be a reality.

That turned out OK.

You also seem to forget Hendrix is still here. I think having Hendrix as a #3 is pretty good alternative. Certainly not even in the same stratosphere as Dillingham. If by some chance all three QB's go down, then you burn the year of eligibility with a highly talented and highly ranked freshman.

I think we'll survive redshirting Zaire in 2013 with the roster we have. I also highly doubt any college or pro team in the country could survive a season in which 3 QB's are lost to injury.

It makes no sense for him to stay a 5th year versus going to med school. The odds are very low he will come back given his intended career path. If he plays a 5th year it will be via transfer where he thinks he has over 50% chance of starting and at a school where it may allow him to go to med school like IU.

It seems that there is at least 1 transfer each spring. May as well get it out of the way early. Now, QB recruiting has suddenly become a bit more of a need in 2014

hard to believe we'll hang onto all nine scholarship safeties.

With Golson having three years remaining and Rees being a very competent backup, I think it makes the most sense to preserve a year of eligibility for Zaire. I assume this is what Kelly will do. It does, however, put us in a precarious spot for 2014. Our backup QB will have never taken a D1 snap. Of course, heading into this year our starter had never taken a D1 snap, and it wasn't a complete disaster.

I think it was a mistake to redshirt Kiel, especially after we had Zaire committed. Unless the staff comes up completely empty on QB for the next recruiting cycle, Zaire should be getting some quality minutes in garbage time (hopefully we have plenty this next season). Even if the next class is bereft of a quarterback, I still think he should get some time out there.

I can't help but wonder if leaving Kiek home on most of these trips really turned him off on ever getting playing time.

I think we have a very solid QB for the next three years. It would have been extremely difficult for Kiel to win the spot from Golson, IMO. I bet Gunner realizes this, and doesn't want to wait for three more years to get on the field.

Transfers always suck, but when they happen because of a depth chart issue, it's hard to get too upset.

and we'll be in all right shape in 2014:

- one guy with 2 years left
- one guy with (hopefully) 4 years left
- one guy with at least 4 and possibly 5 years left

will Hendrix be eligible for a 5th year if he wants it?

We were already recruiting a few elite QBs in next year's recruiting class before this news came out.

Of course, the taking of one QB each year may also be a cause of possible transfers, but this is what needs to be done.

but I don't know if we'd take him or if he'd even want it...doesn't he want to go to medical school?

was that he is still on track for medical school after four years at ND. That said, if he could start one season as QB at ND, I'd bet he would delay medical school for a year.

and this again means that the handcuffs will be on the offense because if Golson gets hurt we're in deep trouble.

Also, iron sharpens iron and I would prefer to have quality depth to push Golson but that is very unlikely.

And as you point out, even in a best case scenario, Kelly won't be comfortable with the full run package using Golson.

The only bright side is Rees is not a total disaster, but we all know that if he has to play multiple games next year that we are not going back to the title game.

Losing Kiel is a major deal. Thank God at least the new guy starts this spring so he will at least know his name by fall. He likely has to play some snaps this year now, because we can't go into the following year with Rees gone and the #2 having never seen the field.

we have good QB depth. This year, we'll be fine with the most experienced back up in the nation behind Golson. Next year, we'll just need Zaire (or another recruit) to be ready if something happens to Everett.

(which I assume is true) isn't the same type of qb as our starter and that is problematic. He's also prone to turnovers, and that is problematic.

This is not a good thing and we're not in a good situation with depth. We're not "fine" we're "adequate at best" and we're praying that Golson progresses and doesn't get hurt.

I think we're still solid at QB. That being said, I'll join you in the prayers for Everett's health.

offense. So no need for a 5-star passing QB.

Would have anyway IMO.

That's a joke.