The Washington NFL franchise needs to get rid of the spears, feathered headresses, etc.,,and substitute a logo comprising images of relatively small, round potatoes (partially peeled optional).

It certainly has as much racist connotation. I don't think I have to educate anyone here about the racism many Irish people encountered when they immigrated to the US. Does the fact that Irish people are white make a difference?

This is just another case of political correctness run amok.

You guys need to stop smoking the kool-aid.

Said if they've got to change it, they prefer being associated with winners.

........then you have far too much time on your hands. There are a hell of a lot more things going on in that swamp that are offensive than the moniker of the Football Team. Get a hold of yourselves.

issues.

I was born here. I'm a native. The Indians are simply the earliest of the immigrants.

I'm also a bit tired of the debate over what's appropriate speech. While it's appropriate not to be insulting in my world, we now have a population of "word canaries" who do little in life except look for something to be offended about and create an issue over it. Thus the NCAA eliminating all references to the American Indian (aboriginal) tribes rather than possibly insult anyone. Stanford has been reduced to a color; but red is kind of aggressive...maybe they should have been green...or blue...to be inoffensive enough.

To make it an ND question, how many on this Board believe that the term "Fightin' Irish" has no pejorative characteristics regardless of how artfully the University has handled it. Our turn in the bullseye will come.

My baby boomer Mom, a double ND degree holder, uses the term where most people say Asian. Why is Oriental bad? I hear people say, "Oriental is a rug!" Yeah, I guess you could have an Oriental rug or a Fench rug, or whatever.

Doesn't Oriental just mean "Eastern?" Heck, there's a high school in my home town of Rochester, the East High Orientals. They have Orientals written right on their football helmets.

It never made any sense to me. Russians are Asian. Indians and Pakistanis are Asian. Yet the word 'Asian' tends to be associated with Oriental people.

The answer I was given was that "Orient," meaning "East," was in fact the offensive part. Since it's only the east if you put the oppressive European conquerors at the center of the globe, any other non-colonial term is preferable.

The "Orient" is not a region of the world as defined by the people who live there, it's a portion of the world relative to the people who coined the term, namely European explorers. And "The Orient" and "Oriental" were really terms for goods/trading, not people.

So referring to people as "Oriental" was using an adjective for physical objects based on an ethnocentric view of the world. That's not unreasonable.

or whatever it was called back then

It was good for some laughs.

Yes, I know. Vermont. Shocking.

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But there is a team called Fighting Irish (which doesn't offend this Irishman)

is a big ND fan specifically because of "Fighting Irish". He's proud of it. But there are those who claim it is on the same level as "paddy wagon" because of an image of the immigrant Irish as prone to drunkenness, riot, and general bad behavior.

The archetypal Boston sign of the mid-19th century "No Irish need apply."

Just look at their record of futility during that time period.

and I agree with almost everything you say in this subject but I would say that "Fighting Irish" is similar to "Braves," "Seminoles," and "Indians" but what makes those terms somewhat offensive is the mascot/marketing (Chief Wahoo," the "howling Indian" mascot of the Braves, the terrible names of some of FSU's players, etc).

People" instead.

I say this as a man who grew up in DC and a die hard fan of the team. The name is embarrassing and offensive. I don't want to hear this "tradition" garbage. Tradition has its place, but if it is used as a defense of backwards practices then it should not hold up.

On the positive side, I think DC has a cool opportunity to change the name and align he team colors to the red, white and blue of the other three major sports teams in the city.

It's unacceptable. No amount of tradition or marketing muscle can overcome my antipathy for the casual use of hate speech.

To think the Redskins have been the family team ever since my grandparents moved to DC after WWII. I guess we're awful people.

As sprack notes below, FSU has an arrangement with the local Seminole tribe. They're clearly not named after the Oklahoma tribe, so it seems like they've taken reasonable measures. Illinois's Chief Illinek was misguided, perhaps, but probably well-intended. North Dakota (Fighting Sioux) and Central Michigan (Chippewas) I think honestly intended to honor the history of their region, and in Central Michigan's case the Chippewa tribe's chief actually pleaded with the NCAA to let them keep the name.

However you feel about all that, I think there's a pretty clear line between a team calling itself the Seminoles, Illini, Sioux, Chippewas, etc., and a team having a mascot named "Chief Wahoo" (Cleveland Indians) or a team being named the "Redskins." Imagine if there were a Chicago Taigs franchise or an Atlanta Niggers franchise - in my mind, at least, this would be essentially the same thing. "Redskin" and the "red man" were terms born of disgust and moral superiority, much like "black savage." It really is pretty ridiculous that they still carry that name today.

But alas, EMU succumbed to political correctness in 1991, changing their name to the boring, oversued "Eagles."

And to be sure, I understand that there is a difference between "Hurons" "Chippewas" "Sioux" "Seminoles" and "Redskins."

All five Marquette grads in my immediate family are still very pissed about "Warriors" going away. So was the late Al McGuire, who is to Marquette what the Rock is to ND.

venting should help. I feel, since the NFL is not the NCAA, they can name the team what they want. There is definitely a tradition here to preserve.

NCAA has a very draconian approach to any college who dares to use anything Indian in their environs. Thank goodness the NFL and MLB take a more reasoned approach.

I don't have a problem with the use of "Indians" or "Braves" as team names but the mascots shouldn't be offensive.

"Redskins" is an offensive term.

Chief Wahoo sure honors Native Americans.
So does the Tomahawk chop performed by 10s of thousands of white people at braves games.

While I (unsurprisingly) agree with a lot of this position...I'm a little surprised to hear it from you in this forum.

We're going to throw around the r-word on Cartier?

repulsive.

The NFL and MLB handling of the issue may not be racist, but it is certainly repugnant. Another R word, that is better than reasoned.

Next think we no, he'll be defending the Duke sorority party where a bunch of Southern Whites dressed as rice paddy farmers.

Try being a fan.

My point was more that the professional associations have just as much power to force the hands of Washington and Cleveland as the NCAA did of UND and Illinois.

Don't forget Atlanta

The FSU" exception ia farce - compare the Seminoles to the Fighting Sioux and Chief Illiniwek - where's the difference?

FSU has an agreement with the Seminole Nation, including rights fees and approval of the mascot.

Think S Dakota had one with the Sioux. Less than uniform enforcement.

They are an Algonquian tribe. The tribes aren't even related.

That was one of the objections of the descendants, though. The Chief's costume was a Sioux costume.

I'm not one for political correctness where it's not warranted, but that's just basic. Imagine if our mascot were wearing an orange sash and a bowler hat.

In any case, the Illinois sports teams still are the Illini. They just retired the Chief.

sign off.

FSU has an agreement with the Seminole nation of Florida which has 2000 members

To my knowlwdge, FSU has no agreement with the Semjnole nation of Oklahoma which has 19000 members

The NCAA was more than happy to let FSU off the hook easy

Staleys and George Halas moved the team to Chicago, they were originally going to be called the "Chicago Neanderthals" but newspaper editors pointed out this would make for a difficult headline and was too many syllables, so they went with "Bears" instead. Some other Neanderthal clans objected, not for political correctness purposes, but rather they wanted the team to be named after themselves.

Another little known fact was that Dick Butkus was a direct descendent of the Clan of the Cave Bear, as evidenced by his proclivity for biting opposing players.

Incidentally, both Halas and Butkus played for the University of Illinois, and liked the Chief.

Hey, I dunno, I'm just passing along information.

But at least the Seminole costume is an historically accurate one.

Mostly